To Fly or Not to Fly [Archive] - Lovebirds Plus Community

michael

06-12-2008, 11:57 AM

Great article Linda. Thanks for sharing it!..........Short story here. At first when my daughter aquired her lovebird "Jones" she allowed him to fly everywhere including the great outdoors. Apparently the breeder (true salesman) who sold him made mention this was fine as long as they were bonded. Thinking this was the norm, business and life went on as usual followed by trips to the Giant Eagle store where she was employed to shop with lovebird in tow. Obviously an attention getter everywhere she went they were mindfully greeted by most with kind amazement. Still, knowone made mention of the extreme risk she was taking with her beloved Jones. Mind you, she really is the type of person who not only loves her pets dearly but takes caring for them very seriously, so, had anything happened to Jones she would have been totally devastated. Thankfully after visiting one day so I could meet Jones, they entered (following a short flight around the yard) with him perched upon her shoulder. Sparing a few details, that was his final trial run for what would have likely resulted in an Amelia Earhart type ending. Unfortunately as fate would sometimes have it, my daughters beautiful Jones, who's calm warm dispostion and loving character is so far matched only by my own Goofy lovebirds personality traits (ironically they are originally of the same clutch) passed away in a toilet bowl filled with a cleaning agent while left under the care of her long forgotten EX-boyfriend. Its been quite some time now and we still miss Jones very very much...................:(

linda040899

06-12-2008, 12:12 PM

Unfortunately as fate would sometimes have it, my daughters beautiful Jones, who's calm warm dispostion and loving character is so far matched only by my own Goofy lovebirds personality traits (ironically they are originally of the same clutch) passed away in a toilet bowl filled with a cleaning agent while left under the care of her long forgotten EX-boyfriend. Its been quite some time now and we still miss Jones very very much
The battle of the toilet bowl lid has been fought many times in my house. All bowl lids are down when no one is using the facility! "I forgot" is not an excuse! When I was growing up, we never lost any birds in this manner but we had a few that thought the bowl was a great place to try to bathe! Not......

jayme

07-27-2008, 11:47 AM

bbslovie

07-27-2008, 11:56 AM

Hi, we went through the same turmoil in thought process when deciding about a wing clip as well. We just decided it was best for Bea. It went well and Bea is absolutely fine. She's had to adjust just a bit but she's doing great and that was the whole point so we're glad it was done. Didn't make it easier on the fidma or fidpa at the time but had to put that all aside! :)

michael

07-27-2008, 02:11 PM

This article is really good. Lately I have been debating about whether or not to clip my bird's wings or not. I think I'm going to because it's just not worth the risk of her flying out the door as the doors here open and close alot.

Jayme. This would be a prime example of why a parrots wings "should" be clipped. Although many poeple who keep birds would prefer "not" to clip, their companions safety supercedes all other reasons. Personally, I choose not to clip my lovebirds wings, but, while doing home repairs the risk was too great so it was absolutely necessary. I also found there was plenty of "bird proofing" that needed to be done as well, and not just the usual stuff either. There were many things my lovebird got into I had no idea would be a problem. His chewing habits alone were enough to keep me busy for quite some time. From plastic shower curtains (he's not allowed in the bathroom for many reasons!), to material items like our couch, leather chair, electrical cords, etc. We also had to make sure there were no "hiding places" like holes in the walls, as well as familiarize ourselves with areas behind furniture and inside or around various appliances. The time it took to learn his habits along with finding alternative toys and adventures was well worth a clip or two. Besides, they always grow back (sometimes a little too soon). One of his favorite "hiding places" is on top an open door. This is really a very dangerous place for a bird should someone close the door :omg:. He makes it a point to perch there quietly while you frantically call his name while searching for him >:.

unstuckpilgrim

07-28-2008, 04:47 PM

We recently had two young lovebird babies at my work. They were getting older and more rambunctious and were starting to fly quite well. So we decided to clip them. I took them into the office and took one out and clipped him. Then I took the second one out and clipped one side and as I was moving to do the other, he slipped out of my hand and hopped out of the office. I followed him out and saw that someone had left the door wide open. He took one look at me and flew out into the great wide open. I could have died right there on the spot.

I spent the next two hours running myself ragged trying to follow him around the neighborhood, watching him fly from tree to tree. I must admit that it was kind of glorious seeing him zip around like that. I couldn't get him though. and the blue jays and crows started circling and it started getting dark and he was sooo smart and just shut his beak and made himself small and unnoticable and the sun went down.

Having to leave him outside was so hard to do.

The next day we put his brother outside in a small cage, which we put inside a larger cage... with millet sprays. And I could hear them calling to each other! And finally he came down and flew into the larger cage to eat the millet and I am serious when I say that I have never felt more relieved in my life.

That was one lesson learned the hard way. And he's doing just fine now, and is well-adjusted and very friendly with people. AND his wings are clipped.

chromasnake

07-28-2008, 05:00 PM

We recently had two young lovebird babies at my work. They were getting older and more rambunctious and were starting to fly quite well. So we decided to clip them...

oh my gosh, I had a heart attack just reading it and went faint with relief at the end.

I am a firm advocate of wing clipping for in-home parrots after a few near-disasters with my adult birds, but have been undecided with the babies who are also flying quite well right now.

So here is another question to those of you with oodles of experience seeing your precious babies go to new homes: do you let these younguns go to new homes clipped (my gut instinct says yes, clip them, for safety sake, they'll have enough new and frightening things to experience!) or unclipped, and let the new owner decide?

bbslovie

07-30-2008, 01:27 AM

Our new birds came to us clipped and I'm glad they were. Bea started "practicing". As she got older (she's 5 months old now) she would flap her wings as she stood on the bottom of the cage to build strength. Just before we got her clipped again she was able to fly from room to room so it was time. I went through the guilt thing about this but honestly believe I'm doing what's best for her. Pallete, our gcc who's 5 3/4 months old) on the other hand, isn't much of a flyer so we'll play it by ear with her. Ultimately it's up to you and when you make a decision from the heart it will be right for you no matter what you decide. :)

Mydoona

08-15-2008, 06:28 PM

I clipped both mine and although they are both tamer, I wouldn't do it again. Keiko broke a couple of wings trying to fly when he couldn't and now he has his wings back is too scared to even try flying and runs around eveywhere.

belenny

07-28-2009, 11:12 AM

michael

07-28-2009, 02:15 PM

In Spain is not very common to clip lovebirds, but bigger parrots are beggining to suffer it :(
I think is not necessary to do it, we can get security for our little friends in many other ways... To clip wings means to restrict their movement, and that is more dangerous than many people think...............

Hi Belenny. Welcome to our community!..........:)

First, I have to agree that to a certain point clipping wings can be dangerous. Without added precautions, a newly clipped parrot can strike a wall or other object, the results which could be devastating. .... If not done properly, a bad clip can initiate feather plucking, a behavior we understand is extremely difficult if not impossible to resolve. .... While there are such cases that do exist, as a result of clipping alone they are relatively far and few. Really, if those who choose to clip their parrots wings would do so in a responsible manner, these problems can easily be avoided while at the same time ensuring the safety of their fids.

If for any other reason a birds wings SHOULD be clipped would be for its own safety. ... For one thing, parrots are very clever in that they can chew or manipulate themselves through various types of screens in a matter of seconds, or, may systematically work in short intervals to eventually find a way through it. While most of us do our best to avoid these circumstances by supervising our fids, there may be other situations that are simply unavoidable. For instance, some households may have several members (most notoriously children :roll:) who come and go with little conscience. Other factors, such as keeping multiple parrots where one aggressive subject threatens serious harm to another, may be a more reasonable alternative than total confinement.

Certainly, all fidparents should take great care in contemplating whether or not to clip their birds wings, mind you, i'm also a firm believer that if its not absolutely necessary, then DON'T do it. Afterall, in striving to keep our birds healthy both physically and emotionally, we must provide as much freedom and exercise as possible. .... On the other hand, if it keeps your bird/s from finding their way outside the safe confines of your home, that could spare them a slow death from starvation and/or freezing, etc.

belenny

07-28-2009, 03:07 PM

Well, I know this is a controversial topic because I have talked about it a lot of times with people whose parrot were clipped, but I think that never is necessary because there are always another options.

With children I think that some mosquito net are enough. Doors can be controlled by adults, you should never leave your lovie alone although he´s clipped... If you are in the room you control the door, it´s simple. If you can´t control that in my opinion a bird is not your best option like a pet.
I love horses but not have space enough, should I have it tied on my little garden with frequent exercise or simply shouldn´t I get it?

There are a lot of reasons for not to clip a parrot because of his physical and mental health, but the reasons for clipping him are always more related to the owner (his comfort). When the parrot is already at home and you find this problems I agree with you, I would prefer clipping him to risking his life, but if you buy a bird with the idea of clipping him you´re wrong in my opinion. It´s a matter of respect like mine with horses...

For me there´s nothing like seeing how my lovebrids enjoy flying. They don´t need a reason, sometimes they simply fly aimlessly and they are so happy... :)

thebubbleking

07-28-2009, 03:58 PM

I will chime in, i let mine fly but under constant supervison have different types of parrots they dont always get along heck alot of times the lovies dont get along, not to mention chewing on wood molding, getting into dusty nasty small spaces (sunshines specialty) etc etc, it is an individual choice, i do personaly belive every bird clipped or not should have as much outside the cage time as possible.

belenny

07-28-2009, 04:12 PM

I agree, and I would add that they don´t only need time out of their cages, the quality of that time is the most important.
They need to destroy things, to interact with another birds or humans, to play, to move around the space, ... Staying on the floor or on a perch during hours and having to wait for a human to go to another place is really sad. Feeling the restriction when before that bird could fly anywhere is hard... :very_sad:

I think we should try to see from their point of view, we have damaged them enough removing them from their habitat and snatching their freedom.

michael

07-28-2009, 06:00 PM

...............There are a lot of reasons for not to clip a parrot because of his physical and mental health, but the reasons for clipping him are always more related to the owner (his comfort). When the parrot is already at home and you find this problems I agree with you, I would prefer clipping him to risking his life, but if you buy a bird with the idea of clipping him you´re wrong in my opinion. It´s a matter of respect like mine with horses............

Of course, I also have to agree with you Belenny, there a few who may choose to clip more so as a benefit to themselves than for that of their birds. .... Best we can do despite all controversy, is without prejudice help them find a more soluble means of safely housing or managing their parrots.

In the meantime, we can at least take heart in knowing, that even for those like myself who once depended on a wing clip for safety reasons, may rest assured those wings will eventually grow back..............:)

thebubbleking

07-28-2009, 06:00 PM

" I think we should try to see from their point of view, we have damaged them enough removing them from their habitat and snatching their freedom. "

Most of our birds are breeder bought, rehomed or bred , we dont snatch them from the wild the majority of our birds havent lost anything they gained a flock who loves and spoils them, they have no natural predators they have no worry of not being able to eat or drink they are safe happy and spoiled, Lovebirds dont last 15 years in the wild they are lucky to live past thier 4th birthday, birds are prey animals and as such i feel we have given them an awsome life, no guilt here! :)

HaleBoppPeachyluv

07-28-2009, 08:00 PM

After reading all the back and forth, I don't think anyone is like to change their mind, but for those who aren't sure what "clipping" involves... for most of us it just involves the partial trimming of PRIMARY FLIGHT FEATHERS, so that the bird in question does not have the ability to gain altitude, but can slow their descent from a height if necessary.

I think of it similar to trimming a baby's fingernails so they are less likely to scratch (harm) themselves.

Wing-clipping does not mean their actual wing/limbs are cut off, though I have heard that used to happen, which I do think is cruel and unnecessary.

My tendency is to clip some primary flight feathers when a new/untame love is brought home to help with the taming process, and as the lovie becomes familiar with the home/caretaker, then the flight feathers are allowed to regrow. If you look at my siggy pic, you can see where sunnybird's FLIGHT FEATHERS are clipped...and now they are growing back out again.

belenny

07-29-2009, 04:27 AM

"In the meantime, we can at least take heart in knowing, that even for those like myself who once depended on a wing clip for safety reasons, may rest assured those wings will eventually grow back.............."

This is an impotant point :)
That wings will grow back, but ¿will be your parrot fitness enough then?
Lack of exercise is only one of the problems about clipping wings, in Spain it´s recomended to do exercise with him everyday while he´s clipped, specially for the wings but also for the beak and the keel (breakaches are really common in clipped parrots).
It´s difficult for me to explain how that exercises are in English, but I´d like to know if in the case of lovebirds you take care of this, too.
In this way, when the parrot recover his wings he could use them without problems.

"Most of our birds are breeder bought, rehomed or bred , we dont snatch them from the wild the majority of our birds havent lost anything they gained a flock who loves and spoils them, they have no natural predators they have no worry of not being able to eat or drink they are safe happy and spoiled, Lovebirds dont last 15 years in the wild they are lucky to live past thier 4th birthday, birds are prey animals and as such i feel we have given them an awsome life, no guilt here! "

Of course, mine are bred in captivity too, but I wanted to say that they didn´t choose to come and I think we should respect them as possible. If you want a pet to run on the floor you have a lot of different options and you can get them respecting them (dogs, cats, ferrets, rabbits, guinea pigs, ...). To convert a bird in which he´s not by whim is unethical in my opinion... I only understand clipping when it was necessary for his security because of something unexpected.

HaleBoppPeachyluv, I know how clipping wings is done, but my opinion is the same. Birds fly, if you don´t like it don´t buy a bird...
If a lovie escapes clipped his dead is unavoidable... I know some cases about cats or big birds who killed parrots because of that.
Lovies who escaped with their wings could go back home sooner or later (I could show a lot of links with the stories if you like it).
Some of them simply came the call of their owner (that´s because I train my lovebirds...), some others flew up a house with another lovebirds and then were returned for the person who lived in that home, some others went to a pedestrian shoulder and were returned too, ... Flying is their only defense.

"My tendency is to clip some primary flight feathers when a new/untame love is brought home to help with the taming process".

This is what I said, owner´s comfort... I can´t respect that.
I had a pair of wild lovebirds when I was 10 and I could tame them without clipping... Only with time and patience. If a 10 year old girl could do that, why can´t others do the same? Because it´s easier with an animal who can´t escape when he´s afraid... I am saying that we should see from their point of view because when they´re afraid and we try to cuddle them advantage that may not leave we´re not respecting them. They will be more terrified then, although they realize that we´re not an enemy later...

Dancelady

07-29-2009, 08:27 AM

"This is what I said, owner´s comfort... I can´t respect that."

To Belenny, this is not for owner's comfort -- it is to keep the lovies safe and happy. Have gotten new lovies over a year ago, which were not tame at all, and when let out would fly to the highest point in the room well over my head and normal ladders. Because they weren't tame, I could not do anything to make them come home. Eventually after they were caught I had the wings clipped a little by a vet, not enough to stop them from flying to their heart's content, but enough to make them fly only straight and not climb. This was important to the lovies themselves, besides to my own self, because they could enjoy themselves but still not get into trouble high up. Saying "you don't respect that" means you aren't open to any ideas, regardless, and I worry about your fids if they ever accidentally get out at a bad time. People all have kids, friends, and others who won't remember to close doors, turn off fans, and open windows with screens, that a good lovie can destruct quickly. Be more mindful about what others need, and don't fault them for doing what they need to do. HaleBopp is right about the right clipping -- doesn't hurt the birds, doesn't stop them from flying, and doesn't mess with them mentally. My birds and all their grown chicks now are very happy, fly every day, and don't feel like prisoners because they are trapped on the floor. Your idea of clipping is wrong -- perhaps the people near you don't know how to clip them, and you are blaming the problem on them, rather than on the actual clipping process. Be more understanding....

belenny

07-29-2009, 08:47 AM

"To Belenny, this is not for owner's comfort -- it is to keep the lovies safe and happy."

Well, that´s your opinion. My lovebirds had never been clipped and they are safe and happy ;)

I repeat: I respect clipping a parrot because of an unexpected problem (for example I know a girl who had to share an apartment for some months and her parrot was clipped until she could go back home), but to buy a parrot with the idea of keeping him clipped during all his life is a selfish act IN MY OPINION (I think it would be better to buy a "non-flying" pet in that case).
You can do whatever you want, I only say what I think and I´m sure I´m not wrong about what clipping wings is.

Greetings!

michael

07-29-2009, 10:20 AM

Most of our birds are breeder bought, rehomed or bred , we dont snatch them from the wild the majority of our birds havent lost anything they gained a flock who loves and spoils them, they have no natural predators they have no worry of not being able to eat or drink they are safe happy and spoiled, Lovebirds dont last 15 years in the wild they are lucky to live past thier 4th birthday, birds are prey animals and as such i feel we have given them an awsome life, no guilt here! :)

.............That wings will grow back, but ¿will be your parrot fitness enough then?
Lack of exercise is only one of the problems about clipping wings, in Spain it´s recomended to do exercise with him everyday while he´s clipped, specially for the wings but also for the beak and the keel (breakaches are really common in clipped parrots).
It´s difficult for me to explain how that exercises are in English, but I´d like to know if in the case of lovebirds you take care of this, too.
In this way, when the parrot recover his wings he could use them without problems.

............Of course, mine are bred in captivity too, but I wanted to say that they didn´t choose to come and I think we should respect them as possible. If you want a pet to run on the floor you have a lot of different options and you can get them respecting them (dogs, cats, ferrets, rabbits, guinea pigs, ...). To convert a bird in which he´s not by whim is unethical in my opinion... I only understand clipping when it was necessary for his security because of something unexpected.

...........Birds fly, if you don´t like it don´t buy a bird...
If a lovie escapes clipped his dead is unavoidable... I know some cases about cats or big birds who killed parrots because of that.
Lovies who escaped with their wings could go back home sooner or later (I could show a lot of links with the stories if you like it).
Some of them simply came the call of their owner (that´s because I train my lovebirds...), some others flew up a house with another lovebirds and then were returned for the person who lived in that home, some others went to a pedestrian shoulder and were returned too, ... Flying is their only defense.

"My tendency is to clip some primary flight feathers when a new/untame love is brought home to help with the taming process".

This is what I said, owner´s comfort... I can´t respect that.
I had a pair of wild lovebirds when I was 10 and I could tame them without clipping... Only with time and patience. If a 10 year old girl could do that, why can´t others do the same? Because it´s easier with an animal who can´t escape when he´s afraid... I am saying that we should see from their point of view because when they´re afraid and we try to cuddle them advantage that may not leave we´re not respecting them. They will be more terrified then, although they realize that we´re not an enemy later...

Belenny. Although I do agree with most your views, I think its important to consider each and every perspective here. ... Afterall, Jeremiah (Bubbleking) as well as the others have offered up some interesting facts. One of them being, that (clipped or not), if provided the proper love and care, companion birds can live long and happy life. ... We must also not forget, that because companion birds are just as much a part our ever growing society as those which are domestic, improving upon their care should not be short changed by implicating certain ethics. That is, sometimes as a result of this oversight, we tend to go our separate ways. This in my view, accomplishes nothing with regards to all of our goals.

As mentioned earlier, clipping a parrots wings under certain circumstances can provide a reasonable amount of safety. If done correctly so as to limit flight (and not eliminate it), this is a far better option than confinement or escape. ... Keep in mind here too, that because most parrots will enter into their new home without so much as even formal training, scared and confused they may easily take flight risking serious injury. To have one escape due to lack of preparedness would only add insult to injury. As a note; We always recommend keeping parrots and other pets apart at all times. Nothing worse than keeping a cat and a bird in the same room :omg:.

Lets not forget, that while some parrots can be trained (even by a 10 year old) to return to their rightful owner, there are many who simply cannot be trained to do anything at all. While this in itself is no reason to clip a parrots wings, it exemplifies the fact that no two parrots or their owners are alike. Therefore, we must base the decision to clip not so much on our beliefs, but how well it might apply in each individual case.

For example, another good reason to clip a parrots wings may be this; ... Say we've taken in a parrot who's behavior is such that it remains in a state of defensiveness and/or aggression. Not exactly a comfortable life, would you not agree? ... So now if we trim a few flights, and this in turn leads to a more comfortable state of emotional wellbeing, would this not be a good thing? ... As you can begin to see, there may be other viable reasons used in determining whether or not to clip a birds wings. ... Once again, clipping should not only be taken seriously, but also be well planned, that way it benefits the parrots lifestyle as a whole.

Certainly, your question in regards to how well a parrot might recover from a clip is an important one. With exception to clipping a birds wings at "too young an age", personally, I don't know of any who have suffered a consequence from having their wings clipped, even when done on a consecutive basis. But as you say, exercise (especially flight) is indeed an important factor in keeping our birds healthy. .... Alternatively, should someone choose to clip, it would make little sense to not follow through with plenty of interaction time. Although i'm unsure as to what type of regimine those in Spain use to help keep their parrots fit and trim, over here we like to provide as much out of cage time as possible, plenty of personal interaction, large cages, a multitude of toys (both natural and manmade), and a safe environment where they can enjoy access to as many devices their little hearts may so desire. ........ By the way, thankfully, breakaches are not too common among parrots here in the U.S. ... For some of us fidparents though, that may be a different story :rolleyes:

belenny

07-29-2009, 11:00 AM

It´s difficult for me to explain what I think in English, I hope you don´t misinterpret the words because I´m using a translator and in spanish I wouldn´t sound so sharp :)

I´ve talked about this so many times on spanish forums that I know perfectly what you want to say, but I can´t be agree with the most of things.

"One of them being, that (clipped or not), if provided the proper love and care, companion birds can live long and happy life."

I agree with that, but I think you´ll agree with me about the posibilities on each case. Interaction with the envirnoment is not the same for a clipped parrot.
My lovebirds could go whatever they want on each room, I remove all the dangerous objects before because of that and I (or somebody of my family) stay with them all the time, there´s no risk.
A clipped parrot will feel the restriction a lot of times and although you can´t (or want to) see it that´s a really unpleasant feeling...

Education and monitoring could avoid dangers, but it requires an effort that most of owners are not interested in doing. You can say that it is supplied by love and care, but I can say that my lovebirds and many others don´t need to be clipped for getting love and care, those two things are completly independent...

"If done correctly so as to limit flight (and not eliminate it), this is a far better option than confinement or escape"

Yes, but those options are not unique. My lovebirds don´t suffer confinement and that doesn´t mean that they will escape.

"Lets not forget, that while some parrots can be trained (even by a 10 year old) to return to their rightful owner, there are many who simply cannot be trained to do anything at all."

That´s no true, any bird could be trained if the owner wanted to do it. It´s a really simple work, but is a work. I would say that not all owners want to test, all the parrots are capable of learning.

"Say we've taken in a parrot who's behavior is such that it remains in a state of defensiveness and/or aggression. Not exactly a comfortable life, would you not agree? ... So now if we trim a few flights, and this in turn leads to a more comfortable state of emotional wellbeing, would this not be a good thing?"

It would be a comfortable life if you allow the parrot used to their new home before any attempt to approach and then were slowly respecting his rhythm. That´s what I did with my wild lovebirds and they became almost lika a hand-feeding one...
Unfortunately, the patience is not very common. Clipping his wings you would get it faster, but at what price?

"Although i'm unsure as to what type of regimine those in Spain use to help keep their parrots fit and trim, over here we like to provide as much out of cage time as possible, plenty of personal interaction, large cages, a multitude of toys (both natural and manmade), and a safe environment where they can enjoy access to as many devices their little hearts may so desire."

Yes, that´s what we do too, but I was not referring to that.
There are some specific routines to exercise the wings, most of that are aimed at stimulating the beating while you´re playing with him.

Greetings!

Enko_chan

07-29-2009, 11:20 AM

There are degrees of clipping and many reasons to clip that have nothing to do with my comfort. All of my birds have 2-3 primary flight feathers clipped when they first arrive here, for safety in transit and while they are getting used to their new environment, and if for any reason, I will travel with them- so much can happen in just a few seconds. They can all still fly short distances- as far as they would need or want to fly indoors- well enough to exercise and get from place to place, and they are less likely to hit a window, wall, or cabinet- which can happen regardless of how careful we are- and hurt themselves, and on the terrible chance that they got out by mistake, they couldn't fly as far. For some people, however, their birds depend on a more thorough clipping for their own safety and well-being. I had a bird that was always very skittish, and in order to let him out of his cage at all, I had to clip him so he couldn't fly. He was rescued, and I was trying to do what is best for him- moral questions about taking birds out of the wild- just don't apply to situations like his- it was a matter of leaving him with a family that neglected him or take him home and give him the best life I could. He would fly erratically whenever spooked, which was often, and hit walls, he would also fly out of reach and hide, and being disabled- I couldn't get him down. He lived a long and healthy life, ultimately dying from a leg infection well past his expected lifespan. Like all parts of bird husbandry, I think the question about whether or not to clip and to what degree depends on an informed decision, and the individual situation. I respect your decision not to clip, you've got your fids best interest at heart and have given the topic research and thought.

We had an unclipped Umbrella Cockatoo when I was little that was trained for flight recall. He got out a door by a terrible mistake. Clipped or not, very few parrots would survive in this climate, with little food available and lots of predators. Peregrine falcons- the fastest animal in the world, as well as other birds of prey such as other species of falcons, hawks, and eagles live in my area- even if the birds aren't clipped they are unlikely to make it in the wild with these predators around! Even if there WERE food here, it is likely they would not know how to find it. To release a bird raised in captivity to the wild would take a lot of careful, well-mediated conditioning, and releasing them to a place that is not their native habitat is not only irresponsible for many reasons, but would almost certainly cause their death. Yes, many birds that are lost are found again, we know that very well in this forum. But many are not. A clipped bird is less likely to get as far away. Our lost Cockatoo was very well trained and loved us very much- he was very dependent on human contact. When he got outside and caught a gust of wind, we imagine he flew as far as it took him, stopped and wondered why we hadn't come to get him. He was friendly with anyone, and if he was found, someone probably took him in- we hope with all our hearts that's what happened- but despite desperate searching, we never saw him again. This was 18 years ago, but it still sticks with me.

Yes, we should always supervise our birds when they are out, unless they are very well trained- and even then I probably woudn't- we should do our best to give them the best lives possible, and allow them plenty of exercise, but I do not think it is fair or appropriate in this forum to say definitively that it is wrong and cruel to clip wings. Everyone in this forum cares very deeply for their fids, and we need to respect all points of view. Ideally, I would have a huge home with padded walls and mosquito-netted windows that could be opened year-round with lots of safe plants that my birds can run free in- but there would be no aviculture if we held such high standards. For the safety of my birds, and for their quality of life, and for no other reason do my birds receive light clips when they first come home. As they grow up, and as the situation merits, I decide whether or not to continue clipping the same amount, clip more feathers, or not clip at all. At this moment, I have two enclosed porches on either side of the house and my birds, excepting the one that just got here, are all trained to stay off the floor and to stay within the two rooms that are bird-safed. I also cover the windows in the rooms where they play so there are no window mishaps. All my birds are allowed to fly from gym to gym to cage to person... within the house.

It is totally reasonable and I think, important to consider philosophical questions concerning whether or not birds are better off in the wild, but I don't think it is helpful when considering whether or not to clip. Its too complex a question to be applicable to concerns in domestic husbandry, and an enormous moral quandry for all of us. Most of the birds were have here in the USA at least, have been bred in captivity for so many generations and bred toward a domestic ideal that it is questionable whether many of them would ever be able to live in the wild at all. Many of these parrots have disappearing natural habitat and with some, very few of their wild brethren still exist. Like a dog or cat, we are dealing with domesticated creatures, even if its to a lesser degree and they still do have the spirit of the jungle in them! These birds aren't wild birds, they weren't born in the wild, they live with us and it is our responsibility to give them the longest, healthiest and happiest lives possible. This is what you and I and most everyone here is trying to do. If you feel that by not clipping you are closer to your ideal- that is great, and you made many good points. I am happy to hear the reasons why you all make particular choices concerning your birds husbandry- but I don't want an ethics lesson.

It may be a semantic fog that is causing confusion here, but I took many of the statements to mean that "clipping is wrong, black and white, period and if you clip your birds, you are cruel." Statements like that cause contention in forums like this. That is one belief, and I respect it, please pay others the same courtesy. I value your input in this forum and though we just "met" I like you and think you have a great flock that you care for well. I don't mean to offend, and if I've taken something the wrong way, I am sorry.

belenny

07-29-2009, 12:01 PM

"It may be a semantic fog that is causing confusion here, but I took many of the statements to mean that "clipping is wrong, black and white, period and if you clip your birds, you are cruel." Statements like that cause contention in forums like this."

That´s it, a translator is not the better way to express ideas xD
I was only trying to say what I think, I didn´t want to say that my opinion is the truth ;) Today I think in this way, but I could be wrong and change my mind in the future.

I really think that buying a bird with the idea of clipping him for all his life is cruel, but I´m sure that in most of cases the cause is a human error and not a malicious intent, so I respect the person who makes it because he has his reasons for thinking in that way as I have mine.

I´m very sorry if you´ve felt judged, it wasn´t my intention.

HaleBoppPeachyluv

07-29-2009, 12:13 PM

"

HaleBoppPeachyluv, I know how clipping wings is done, but my opinion is the same. Birds fly, if you don´t like it don´t buy a bird...
If a lovie escapes clipped his dead is unavoidable... I know some cases about cats or big birds who killed parrots because of that.

"My tendency is to clip some primary flight feathers when a new/untame love is brought home to help with the taming process".

This is what I said, owner´s comfort... I can´t respect that.
I had a pair of wild lovebirds when I was 10 and I could tame them without clipping... Only with time and patience. If a 10 year old girl could do that, why can´t others do the same? Because it´s easier with an animal who can´t escape when he´s afraid... I am saying that we should see from their point of view because when they´re afraid and we try to cuddle them advantage that may not leave we´re not respecting them. They will be more terrified then, although they realize that we´re not an enemy later...

Belenny, I didn't mean to imply you didn't know what wing-clipping meant, it was meant for people who find this thread and aren't familiar with that term.

Also, you'll notice I said that I don't think people will change their minds. Just because a person thinks a way is the right way doesn't mean others will agree no matter how passionately they state their views. Everyone here is respectful of the difference of opinions. We ask that you don't attack or insult members who have a different opinion.

In my opinion, saying "I can't respect that" is very disrespectful. It implies that you think I don't care for my lovies as much as you do. It is one thing to think it, but it is rather impolite to post it publically. A simple "I disagree" is far less likely upset people.

And as far as ages go, I don't think age is relevent.

When I was 8 I got my first lovebird & he was flighted. He was not tame when we first got him, I tamed him. When I was 9, he escaped out the front door when I was not home. He landed on powerlines across the street and my mother sent my brother to fetch me. He did not come down for my family members, he came down when I called. We clipped his flight feathers after that. He remained tame and friendly and well loved the rest of his life. He had a lot of out-of-cage time and plenty of exercise.

I have never had a clipped lovebird escape from me, only flighted ones, and I am grateful that they came back when called. In fact, it breaks my heart to see a single lovebird occasionally flying around my neighborhood calling to my lovebird, but never getting near enough to catch.

At any rate, probably neither of us will change our opinion, which is fine with me because your lovebirds look healthy and happy and I know mine are, too.

belenny

07-29-2009, 12:32 PM

michael

07-29-2009, 03:22 PM

I said it in the same way that I would say it in spanish and I think that could be the problem ;) I can´t it´s like impotence, not like an insult.

Anyway I was referring to the act, not the person. I can´t respect it because I can´t find any reason to buy a bird without the proper conditions at home and convert him in another thing restricting his ability to move.

Do you remember the example on the beggining? I could have a horse in my little garden and do extra exercise outoors with him, but I think that a horse needs a great space to run and I prefer don´t fulfill my wish to have a limited horse.

Look at this, ¿what´s your opinion about this man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T2-wMXtRgM

In my opinion, for lovebirds especially, free flight training is nothing to fool around with. Even professional trainers like Chris Biro will advise you "Do not try this at home". It is not only unconterminious to each different species, but requires thousands of hours of experience. Something not all of us are entitled to. ... For each video you offer showing the benefits free flight, there are just as many stories of those who have permanently lost their precious companion. Example.... http://www.youtube.com/user/kskiwi ....Likewise, for each story you share pointing out that flighted parrots have a better chance at being recovered, there are a multitude of those who would easily suggest otherwise. For example; http://www.birdhotline.com/viewlost.htm It is also a known fact that PEAC (Parrot Education and Adoption Center) based in San Diego at one time reported that out of 74 parrots rescued in a 6 year time period, the majority were never reunited with their owners. Out of that 74, only two were clipped. While this number may appear quite small, it only reflects birds which were found, not ones rescued, and not those who are yet to be accounted for. That is, if their still alive.

Obviously, we can continue to debate this issue to the extent of whether or not we should even keep companion birds. ... Surely though, if you feel that by not offering the proper conditions at home we should therefore not keep them, then even you yourself are not properly equipped to own one. .... Reason. Fact is, most birds have evolved to fly great distances on a daily basis. To think we can offer a fully flighted parrot anything near what they'd encounter in the wild would be absurd. ... And to further state your birds do not suffer confinement, well, I would say that in itself is a matter of contention. .... As for horses on the other hand, because they not only lack certain appendages, and take up far more space in our living rooms (or small garden), I really don't see them as a good comparison.

None the less, because we have all chosen to keep birds in some way "captive", it is our responsibilty to provide them with the best care possible. And what really makes LBP forums so very important here, is that everyone, regardless of who they are or where their from can enjoy an equal opportunity to share their experience and their views. .... Quite frankly here, debating whether "To fly or not to fly?" is only a tip of the iceburg. ..... Next, is "To breed or not to breed?"..............:)

belenny

07-29-2009, 03:58 PM

"In my opinion, for lovebirds especially, free flight training is nothing to fool around with."

I agree, and in my opinon lovebirds wouldn´t fly free even with that thousands of hours of experience ;) Their size makes it really dangerous.
That man on the video said me that and I think he´s right, but I posted it because I can percieve on your words a big fear of your lovies escape. I wanted to know if you´re agree with people who do this type of training or if you think that they´re irresponsible with their pets (I´m talking about people who has experience).

Would you do free flight with a bigger parrot if you could prepare yourselves properly?

"And to further state your birds do not suffer confinement, well, I would say that in itself is a matter of contention."

Well, I understood confinement like less freedom because of their wings. In the spanish forums people who defended clipping wings said that their parrots could be out of their cages more hours than non-clipped ones ;)
Obviously, any pet suffers confinement because they can´t choose to go away. I tried to say that non-clipped parrots can move around all their available space, but clipped parrots are restricted in that aspect.

"if you feel that by not offering the proper conditions at home we should therefore not keep them, then even you yourself are not properly equipped to own one."

I think you don´t have the conditions because you need to modify the pet to suit you, it´s simple. You have the conditions to have a non-flying bird, but no a bird.
I can have a bird without modifying him, his exercise at home will never be like in the nature, but it´s the same with feeding or a lot of things :)

LovelySydney

07-29-2009, 08:16 PM

I clip because Ive seen a friends bird fly into a window because it got scared, and it died instantly. My friend has never gotten over that loss and being as bonded to Oliver or any other birds I have, I couldn't fathom letting that happen, even by accident. Oliver can fly a little because his flights are growing in but I will never allow him to be fully flighted. He is too small and too fragile, he could really do some damage to himself. I know people who are all about clipping and those who aren't - to each their own, were all individual bird owners here - but that being said, there isn't any right or wrong answer on clipping - its a preference and each is acceptable in this community.

belenny

07-30-2009, 03:29 AM

I clip because Ive seen a friends bird fly into a window because it got scared, and it died instantly.

You blame the wings when the accident was caused by your friend... Yes, I think you´re wrong on this case. Having a bird as a pet isn´t an easy thing, anybody should think that when decides to have one.

I know people who are all about clipping and those who aren't - to each their own, were all individual bird owners here - but that being said, there isn't any right or wrong answer on clipping - its a preference and each is acceptable in this community.

I though we could give opinions on this thread whether an individual believes it is better to fly or not fly. I believe it´s better to fly and that means that I don´t think so about not to fly, I suppose you all choose clipping because you think it´s better than no clipping.
We only want the best for our lovies, that´s why I respect people although I can´t respect the act :)
That´s not an insult, it´s a view expressed to the best that a translator and a bad English can do :p

Greetings for everyone!

belenny

07-30-2009, 03:53 AM

I saw my two lovebirds flying into the window, too. Don´t think that my opinion is not clipping because I can´t see the risk ;)
The diference is that I was little and they could go out of their cage because of the bad advice of a salesman... He sold me something like this:

http://www.animalots.com/images/BE1.jpg

And he said livebirds could not to break it... They COULD and it was summer, we didn´t have mosquito net so they went forever :(
I was a girl then, and I decided that I would not have a bird again until I could avoid this accidents with information (what objects can they use and what objects can´t they use) and security measures at home (mosquito net, monitoring, ...). I was 19 when I bought Wiki ;)

personatus

07-30-2009, 08:19 AM

linda040899

07-30-2009, 08:52 AM

Flight feather clipping at my house depends on the individual bird. I, too, believe that birds were given wings to use for flying. All exits from the house lead to a screened in area so escape to the outside is not a high fear on my list but keeping my parrots out of trouble is!

My lovebirds, at the moment, are all fully flighted and all of my larger parrots can also fly, sometimes all too well! I've found that all are trainable to return to their cages on command so chasing them lock them in their cages when I'm not there is not an issue, nor is it hard.

I never push my beliefs on anyone, as I feel this is a personal decision and there's no right or wrong.

belenny

07-30-2009, 09:09 AM

Nice topic. I clipped my first 2 birds when I first had them. Never ever again!

To me flying is a unique gift only birds have the right to, and it shouldnt be taken away. Birds can be tamed without been clipped and they can be kept safe and healthy without clipping aswell.

That's just my opinion though. :)

What a beautiful personatus!! :omg:

Sorry if I´m off topic, but I´m curious about the situation of personatus in your country. In Spain it´s REALLY difficult to find a pure personatus or fischeri because people have mixed them :( These are the usual birds here...

http://www.agaporniscoqui.es/objetos/agapornis-hibridos/hibrido%20de%20fischer%20y%20personatas.JPG

http://www.agaporniscoqui.es/objetos/agapornis-hibridos/agapornis%20hibrido.JPG

http://www.agaporniscoqui.es/objetos/agapornis-hibridos/hibrido%20de%20fischer%20y%20personata.JPG

http://www.agaporniscoqui.es/objetos/agapornis-hibridos/hibrido%20de%20personatas%20y%20fischer.JPG

Of course there are some worried breeders who are trying to recover them, but it´s difficult because there are a lot of "pure" fischeris or personatus whose babies are spotted because they aren´t pure although they seem...

personatus

07-30-2009, 10:38 AM

I never push my beliefs on anyone, as I feel this is a personal decision and there's no right or wrong.

Amen to that!

What a beautiful personatus!! :omg:

Sorry if I´m off topic, but I´m curious about the situation of personatus in your country. In Spain it´s REALLY difficult to find a pure personatus or fischeri because people have mixed them :( These are the usual birds here...

http://www.agaporniscoqui.es/objetos/agapornis-hibridos/hibrido%20de%20fischer%20y%20personatas.JPG

http://www.agaporniscoqui.es/objetos/agapornis-hibridos/agapornis%20hibrido.JPG

http://www.agaporniscoqui.es/objetos/agapornis-hibridos/hibrido%20de%20fischer%20y%20personata.JPG

http://www.agaporniscoqui.es/objetos/agapornis-hibridos/hibrido%20de%20personatas%20y%20fischer.JPG

Of course there are some worried breeders who are trying to recover them, but it´s difficult because there are a lot of "pure" fischeris or personatus whose babies are spotted because they aren´t pure although they seem...

They all look like hybrids to me, it's sad really that fine wildcolour specimens are so hard to come by.

Hybirdisation is often blamed for the orange-red suffusion often found around the transitional zone between the black mask and the yellow collar/breast. Not always the case though - alot of it is simply down to a lack of selective breeding.

The mask of a green personatus consists of underlying red psitaccin with the black eumelanin, which is why the mask is not a pure jet-black, it's more of a duller, coal-like black as it's a combination of red and black. In the blue personatus mutation, all the psitaccin is removed, meaning we only see the black eumelanin, so the mask is that pure, jet-black.

With green series personatus we should try and avoid any red suffusion bewteen the mask and the breast/collar, but it's not easy at all! You can have 2 pure parents with no suffusion at all, but they often produce young with lots of suffusion. If you try and breed out the suffusion too much you ruin the desired colour and shape of the mask - breeding a good personatus is not easy at all!

That been said, the birds in them photo's all look like hybrids to me. Sadly there is so many people who don't know the difference between personatus and fischeri - world wide. It's something that quite annoys me really. Even top breeders out there have hybrids labelled as fischeri or personatus for example. The sad truth is, there's more hybrids out there than proper clean gened birds. I wrote an article a while back helping people identify the difference between a personatus and fischeri.

If you want some good personatus, then come over to Holland and i'll give you some! :rofl:

michael

07-30-2009, 11:11 AM

............That man on the video said me that and I think he´s right, but I posted it because I can percieve on your words a big fear of your lovies escape. I wanted to know if you´re agree with people who do this type of training or if you think that they´re irresponsible with their pets (I´m talking about people who has experience).

Would you do free flight with a bigger parrot if you could prepare yourselves properly?.........

Do I personally agree with those who practice free flight training? And, would I practice free flight training myself? Yes and no. ... Yes..if it were done in an enclosed area such as a school gym, auditorium, or better yet a large open aviary. .... No..if this were practiced anywhere without a safe barrier. ... Free flight or not, I also feel some geographics are far more hazardous than others. For instance, a rural area to me would be a little safer than an urbanized one. This may explain why some trainers are a bit more successful than others. ... Either way, I would never do this unless there were a safe place to practice it, and I had an experienced instructor right nearby...........:)

linda040899

07-30-2009, 11:36 AM

I have to agree with Michael regarding free flight. With the exception of one of my parrots, all are domestically bred. That means if something goes wrong during the free flight exercise, it could mean a death sentence for the bird. Our avian companions depend on us for their survival and very few can adapt to life outside the safety of our homes. They lack the skills to determine what's edible and how to avoid predators. Some survive long enough to come home but not all are that lucky.

Free flight in a controlled situation where safety is not an issue sounds good to me!

belenny

07-30-2009, 01:01 PM

I knew that the situation of personatus and fischeri on another countries was not as bad as in Spain and I am very glad of confirming it :)

"Sadly there is so many people who don't know the difference between personatus and fischeri - world wide."

I´d like to say that this is the only problem in Spain, but I fear that this is not so... :(
There are many people who breed hybrids without knowledge, but sadly there is a growing number of BREEDERS who breed using non-pure parents because they don´t want to loose the money that they spent in them, too... I´ve tried to make some of them understand the problem, but they always have an excuse: I am too "purist" and that birds are pure for them.

About free flight training I think it´s a polemical topic about "to fly or not to fly" like clipping wings and it fits perfectly on this thread :)

It is never completly out of risks, that´s why most of you wouldn´t do it without a barrier. Do you think that you´re too fearful or that people who do it are too reckless?

linda040899

07-30-2009, 01:51 PM

It is never completly out of risks, that´s why most of you wouldn´t do it without a barrier. Do you think that you´re too fearful or that people who do it are too reckless?
I can only speak for myself on this. I, personally, love all my birds very much. They are like family to me and I will protect them as such. I would not intentionally expose any of my own human children to potential harm and I feel the same way about my pets. I want my birds to be healthy and happy and if I knew that they could survive outside on their own, I might think differently.

Ginger (CAG) is wild caught and I remember how bad I felt when I first added her to my flock. My ex-husband asked me if I would consider sending her back overseas to be released back into the wild and let her take her chances with being captured again. Her next hypothetical situation might not be as good as the one she has with me.

belenny

07-30-2009, 02:15 PM

So, ¿do you think you´re too fearful or not? :rofl:

You´re taking risks with your non-clipped parrots because they could escape, why do you take them in that case?

Greetings!

linda040899

07-30-2009, 03:26 PM

You´re taking risks with your non-clipped parrots because they could escape, why do you take them in that case?

All exits from my main house lead to screened in areas so there's no escape risk. If you open my front door, I have a screened in walkway that's 10' long. My back sliding glass doors open to a large screened in lanai. Risk???????

belenny

07-30-2009, 04:35 PM

Could I go to live with you? :rofl:

That´s perfect!

Enko_chan

07-30-2009, 08:15 PM

Belenny-

While I do not think the horse comparison is apt- I will certainly say I agree. I gave up my stable, pasture, land, and my 7 beautiful horses and 3 ponies that I loved as much as I'll ever love a human being because I had to move to the city. I had the opportunity to keep and board them, but there was nowhere nearby to house them where they would get the space, love, care and attention that they have in the homes where they were placed. The two young stallions and my favorite Arabian gelding, Hawk, all went to the same 10,000 acre horse farm, and the rest were split up to go to equally wonderful places. So in a very literal way, I do understand. Relative to the cost of buying, raising, training and breaking them- I and my family essentially gave these wonderful animals away after much painstaking research so that they would go to the best home possible. I would do no less for my birds if I felt that they were being harmed by living here.

I just wanted to reiterate that only my new very young baby quaker and parrotlet are presently clipped and they can both fly very well. The quaker was allowed to fledge fully flighted and was clipped by the person I bought him from for safety in transport- he can still fly all the way across my house. Whether I will continue to clip a few flights or allow him to remain fully flighted depends on his personality. He has only been here since Sunday. My parrotlet I only clipped to limit distance of flight- he is very fast and can fly very far. We call him "the green blur". He came here with ALL his primary flights clipped and he could STILL fly better than my lovies can full-flighted! If I didn't travel with him as often as I did, I would not clip him at all. There are young children at my grandparents' house and though they take basic bird-safety precautions, I can't count on them to be perfect. He is so attached to me that leaving him behind often would stress him out horribly. My lovebirds were clipped when they arrived, they were bred and shipped by our own Linda, and it was for their safety in the event that they got loose and a non-bird person had to catch them. They're wings have almost entirely grown back by this point and they are well-trained and I have no reason to clip them. Like Linda, I have screened in entry/exit in both the front and back of the house- so in order for them to get out- they would have to get into rooms where they are not allowed- door #1, and through two other doors to get free. I wish I felt comfortable with allowing them to fly outdoors, and that I had more room- but relative to the space that I have, I feel that even when they had 2-3 flight feathers clipped, they still got adequate exercise.

I believe in leaving birds full-flighted if possible, but I also don't think its a black and white issue. In certain circumstances, a slight or full clip may be in order for the bird's own safety. I know that the exercise available via flight available in our house is not anywhere near what they would receive in the wild, but they do get a lot of attention, and a lot of time out of their cages- and all of their cages are more than adequate for their sizes.

Enko_chan

07-30-2009, 08:19 PM

All exits from my main house lead to screened in areas so there's no escape risk. If you open my front door, I have a screened in walkway that's 10' long. My back sliding glass doors open to a large screened in lanai. Risk???????

My house is similar. Thanks to this- I can leave my lovbirds full-flighted, and the others flighted well enough to fly around indoors as well as they please!

belenny

07-31-2009, 04:31 AM

I´ve never seen something similar in Spain, how lucky you are!

I think here´s your most important sentence:

"They are well-trained and I have no reason to clip them."

That would be the priority for people who have a bird. Education is really important for them to live in with humans, and it´s not so difficult to do if you have a bit of patience.

What type of training did you do with them?

Greetings :)

linda040899

07-31-2009, 10:23 AM

What type of training did you do with them?
All of my larger parrots know the up command and will step up onto either my arm or a perch. All will also respond to what I call my "in your cage" command. In case of an emergency, that would save me a lot of time, in that I don't have to deal with each one individually.

I'm also working with my pet lovebirds to fly to an extended hand if I raise that hand above my head and call them to come.

belenny

07-31-2009, 10:56 AM

Well, my lovebirds are trained for doing that and I think it´s enough to "control" them at home :)

Some big parrot owners in Spain say that they have to clip wings because their parrots usually fly around the room and they can´t catch them to put into their cages... It´s posible to train them for that, so I think it´s a non consistent reason. The same with taming, it´s posible with time and patience.

Some others say that their parrots used to crash with windows or mirrors and it was dangerous for them to fly. I showed my lovebirds all windows and mirrors when they came home, I put their beacks on them and they realized that were solid. They have NEVER crashed with them...

I think there is always an alternative way without clipping, don´t you think so?

linda040899

07-31-2009, 11:45 AM

I have yet to have any of my larger parrots run into either a window or a wall. They fly around the room where they are housed and that room is quite large. They all fly quite well! In order to get them into their cages, I only have to give the command to one of them. Next thing you see, all feathered butts are going into their cages. One of those parrots is not hand tamed and she's the reason I started working with them. They all kind of learned it from each other. There's no doubt in my mind that they understand what I want them to do!

belenny

07-31-2009, 12:12 PM

You can be sure of that :)

michael

07-31-2009, 12:53 PM

........I think there is always an alternative way without clipping, don´t you think so?

I would love to think there's always alternatives to clipping a parrots wings, but, I don't feel thats a very realistic view. Once again, for whatever reason should risks be high a temporary clipping can keep a bird safe yet allow them the opportunity to remain outside their cage. ... Second, should a mild clip somehow encourage a more positive relationship between parrot and guardian, then it is no doubt an option worth looking into. ... Last but not least..... While there are a handful of those who might clip a birds wings as more of a comfort toward themselves, I believe most really do prefer their birds remain fully flighted. That, we must not forget, will always be the main objective.

belenny

07-31-2009, 01:05 PM

"Second, should a mild clip somehow encourage a more positive relationship between parrot and guardian, then it is no doubt an option worth looking into."

I think that owner should look into another option first, a less damaging option for the parrot...

Do you really think that clipping wings will affect them only if done wrong?

linda040899

07-31-2009, 02:05 PM

Do you really think that clipping wings will affect them only if done wrong?
Like humans, each parrot is an individual and events will affect them differently. This is where you have to learn to know your own bird to be able to determine what's best for him/her.

belenny

07-31-2009, 02:45 PM

Well, that´s true if we talk about psychological part, but there is a physical one too...

KateBascombe

06-15-2011, 08:42 PM

I leave mine unclipped, for the simple reason that my first Tiel, when clipped. Became very very withdrawn and shy. Even though her flight are fully regrown she's not the same outgoing bird as she used to be. It seemed to take all her confidence away. I only clipped them to make it easier to bond/train with her for a few months. But she refuses any interaction with humans anymore.

thebubbleking

06-15-2011, 08:50 PM

I keep mine un clipped as they fly daily for exersize.

maria-mar

04-11-2012, 08:18 PM

Hi everyone, this is only my second post here and english is my second language, so please bare with me if it isn't perfect.

I have just hand raised a lovebird for the first time. I got him as a baby from a breeder and feed him at home. He is about two months old now and obviously has never been clipped. He's already an excellent flyer and a very tame bird. I never let him fly outdoors, but just around the room, under supervision.

I'm debating as weather i should clip or not... and this discussion helped a lot. But i can't make my mind just yet.

You guys seemed to be suggesting clipping as an adjustment tool - to a new house, a new environment, a new situation - and i can understand that. But that's not the case here. This bird is more than adjusted to the place and has bonded very deeply with me.

So clipping would satisfy only one purpose: safety.
But while flying may be dangerous, a bird that can fly is also a bird that can escape a bad situation, being stepped on, for example. I am also a dog and cat owner. My dogs have no interest in my other pets, but the cat i don't trust for a minute, and left alone, i don't trust any of them. So obviously i never let my pets around without supervision.

But i do let the bird out with the dogs in the room. He will most likely snuggle under my sweater, fly around the room or play over my desk. But imagine his wings are clipped, and he jumps off the desk. He can't come up now. One of the dogs get him. End of story :/

Of course i always have them under supervision. But accidents do happen. And if he can fly away from a situation like that (right to the top of my head :P), isn't that something good?

My mind isn't set yet... so some advice would be more than welcome!...