Hand-Raising

[lovebirdcrazy11]

I would like to know more about hand-raising, because I'm just not convinced hand-raised birds make great sweet affectionate pets most of the times. Can you hand-raise Conures, Senegals, Quakers, Pionus, IRN's just like you hand-raise a lovebird?

Thanks

[LauraO]

Ironically I had a conversation with a rehabber/rescuer the other day who also believes it's a falacy that lovebirds need to handfed to be friendly. Her experiences were that lovebirds fledge sooooo fast, compared to the 8 or 9 months of the larger parrots, that there isn't really time to make a difference in terms of bonding.

I have 18 lovies and several of the ones raised in this house were handreared and someone meeting my flock would not be able to tell the difference. I have several handfed babies that are wild because they weren't socialized and several of my handreared lovies that are totally tame and handeable.

I recently visited a breeder who handfeeds excusively but does not socialize her babies. She had to clip baby lovie wings at six weeks cause they were wild and she couldn't catch them to feed them. In fact, there wasn't one lovie she had that was tame and she handfed them all.

I find it much more fun to handrear as I get to be a part of watching my parents raise their babies. There is nothing funner than having the whole family out to play together or watching birdy flight school. I also get great joy watching the parents wean their babies and teach them to preen, etc. I also think it's a much more humane and respectful way to treat parent birds. I can't imagine how disheartening and emotionally traumatic it must be for parent birds to continually have babies ripped away from them without being able to raise them.

But really it's best if you just try it out for yourself and see what happens. You still need to spend a lot of time with the babies in order for them to be tame and well adjusted.

[linda040899]

I agree with Laura that it's much easier to handle baby lovebirds because they are smaller and fledge faster than larger parrots. I know this will work with Tiels and Bourke Parakeets but I've never bred any larger parrots so I don't have the experience to comment in that area. Some larger parrots will kill their chicks if the nest is disturbed so it goes right back to knowing your own birds and what you can/cannot do with them.

[Mummieeva]

I would never hand feed(talking about only hand feeding) a baby unless it was last choice. To me thats kinda like taking a newborn and giving it back to mom when it was a year old. Whisper is parent raised and sociliazed and likes scritches. So you do not have to handfeed to get a good bird.



Steph

[lovebirdcrazy11]

So anything that takes less than 8 weeks to wean, and have parents who let you hold their babies will work?

Parrotlets fledge at the same age of lovebirds, and Green cheeks take about 8 weeks to fledge. Can hand-rasing work with these species?


Thanks

[linda040899]

I don't breed larger parrots, so I can't offer any suggestions about handraising them. I know I've done it with Tiels and lovebirds and I'm pleased with the results. A trust relationship with a bird is built on socialization, not food. Not all birds are alike so there will be degrees of tameness. It comes down to accept your bird for as far as you can take the relationship.

[Jezz]

So anything that takes less than 8 weeks to wean, and have parents who let you hold their babies will work?

Parrotlets fledge at the same age of lovebirds, and Green cheeks take about 8 weeks to fledge. Can hand-rasing work with these species?


Thanks

Indian Ringnecks take 7 weeks to fledge and once they come out of the box, they are extremely flighty and cannot be tamed. You have to handraise one to get it tame, unless you want to spend about 5 years trying to tame a parent raised one

[Booda's Butt]

I have handfed Green Cheeks, Quakers, Tiels, and CAG's. I do believe that handraising for the big birds at least (Tiel size and up) makes a difference. When I was searching for a breeder for my Senegal, I shopped around a lot. Most of the larger birds (again, Tiel and up) are handfed these days if you want them to be a nice tame pet companion. It seems that when they have experience with human hands from a very very very young age, they trust human hands more. They also recieve human type affection at the young age, so they are used to getting hugs and scritches all the time. They form a bond with the handfeeder, and can make bonds with their future owners easily, being able to recognize the human as capable of forming their bonds to.

This is what I've always been told, and has always made sense to me. I have met very few parent-raised birds, but the ones I have are typically a little harder to hand tame. But this doesn't mean they can't be hand tamed ever - and by a little harder, it's just more time and patience.

I don't know how this can all be applied to lovebirds and other similarly smaller bird species, but I'd assume pretty similar. I've also always been told that even parakeets can be very hand tamed, but this is generally much easier to accomplish if you can find a hand-raised parakeet. (or budgie..)

Don't know if that helped answer your question or not...but yes, much of the larger birds DO get handfed. (whether similar to lovebird handraising, i'm not sure...)

[Mummieeva]

My parent fed is tame. My first lovie ever was handfed and bite and drew blood alot. I think has to do alot with if they are socialized from a early age. Atleast with lovies and my experience.


Steph

[BarbieH]

It seems that when they have experience with human hands from a very very very young age, they trust human hands more.

Ah, but does that experience need to include food?

I have only experienced this with lovebirds on a very small scale. Sam was handfed from day 1, and he didn't have any siblings with him. He is gradually learning how to socialize with other lovebirds face to face. It's exciting for him but also seems to be rather stressful; I noticed a stressbar on his feathers this week. We're taking it slow.

Didjit, Sam's brother from a different clutch, was raised by his parents, George and Gracie. We socialized with all three birds, handling Didjit and teaching him how to perch on fingers. (George and Gracie don't perch on fingers.) Didjit and Sam are both very confident, healthy, well-socialized birds. I feel that Didjit is better adjusted in general in his ability to socialize with humans and lovebirds.

Barney and Bongo are the offspring of Bosco and Betty. We fed each of them for roughly the first 3-5 days of their lives, until Betty figured out what she needed to do. We socialized the boys daily after that point, until a little while after they fledged. Then they wanted nothing to do with us, and I think it has something to do with their parents not being fully socialized with us. None of them wants to come out of the cage willingly, and I don't like forcing them out if I don't have to. They all four act like breeding birds.

So, we have two different families, two different sets of human-lovebird dynamics, and eight distinct lovebird personalities.

[Janie]

Yep, the individual personality, IMHO, makes as much difference as anything else. My Oliver was a pet store bird who cost under $50. so I'm assuming he was totally parent raised. He lived with another family for his first 7 or 8 years and I was told by his former owner that while he was not a mean bird, he wasn't real friendly. HE IS NOW! :D Because he would step up and did not bite, I handled him all the time, from the time we adopted him 2 years ago. He truly does have the sweetest personality and has no fear of hands and is a 100% velcro birdie. I've had dogs and cats all my life and this bird is just as affectionate to me as any pet I've ever had. I did not expect to have this relationship with a bird.....never in a million years! :)

My new boys, Big Boi and Shy were pulled (by the breeder) and hand fed at around 10 days old. Neither are in the least bit afraid of hands and go straight for my hands when I put them in the cage for any reason. They don't bite them but the do nibble and lick them to death! Big Boi likes to be petted and held, Shy does not. Different birds, different personalities! :D DNA'd brothers, hatched two days apart and nothing alike! :D I doubt I will ever have the relationship with them that I do with Oliver but then again, they have each other but do let me interact with them and that's what I really wanted when I got them. :)

[bellarains]

OK,

My opinion is: If a person handfeeds, the bird basically bonds to the person doing the feeding. Handfeeding is holding the bird, and of course giving it food which makes them depend on you for food, which as we all know is usually the person any pet bonds to, the one who fills their belly. Still, handling the babies after the parents have fed them is accomplishing the same thing that handfeeding does without having them depend on you for food. They still have their bellies full, they are still being handled thus getting used to human touch, but they still know that they are a bird too. I seriously believe handfeeding takes away some of their natural instincts.

I have both, a handfed and a parent fed lovie. To be quiet honest, my parent raised lovie bites less, and even if she nips, does not do so with a vengence. I can also feed her treats by hand, where as my handfed lovie will nip your fingers if you try to feed him by hand. Both though are sweetie pies, and I have a bond with each of them.

I agree with others also though, that alot depends on the personality of your bird. Just like people, they all have their own unique personalities and quirks, and just like people, we love them for who they are :D

[Booda's Butt]

this topic has become very interesting - I'm wondering if anyone here believes that these dynamics can only be applied to lovebirds and similar sized birds, as compared to the big birds like Conures, Cockatoos, Macaws, Greys, etc. These guys have beaks that can crush bones and cause injuries that require ER stitches, rather than just a small bandaid and neosporin. Would you think that these types of birds should be better off (maybe not a good choice of words here) hand fed?

I have gone over handfeeding vs. parent-raised discussions and papers and articles many times, and I've seldom hear this much discussion. I can see why some people believe, in the case of lovebirds, that parent-raised and hand-fed makes very little difference, but I'm not completely agreeing with the sense that hand-feeding takes away a birds natural instincts. What sorts of natural instincts would you be referring to, and of these "lost" natural instincts, which are absolutely necessary for it's survival in captivity under our care and protection?

[Mummieeva]

:rofl: lovies can cause some bad bites also. Baggy has gotten me before and drew alot of blood. I also prefer parent feeding because they give imunities just like humans do to babies. Plus the thought of handfeeding and going to slow or to fast scares me. I have nothing against those who hand raise bird as long as they do not think that just handfeeding alone makes sweet babies.

Steph

[BarbieH]

Some lovebirds have been known to lose their ability to feed their own young. Abyssinian lovebirds, for example, have been handfed to the point that they are being imported now by groups dedicated to helping them relearn how to feed their own offspring.

[jknezek]

On my eclectus list there are a few people with parent-raised birds. There are only a few ekkie aviaries that try to let the parents raise the birds unless they won't. Most pull the babies at an early age. The discussions we've had about this practice have led to some interesting thoughts. First, the parent-raised birds are sold significantly later than the handfed ones. A combination of the weaning taking longer and the breeder then wanting to hand tame the birds before they go to new homes. These breeders tend to keep their birds until the babies are between 12 and 16 months old. Most of the hand-raised ekkies leave the aviaries after weaning in the 4 to 8 month range.

The breeders who are proponents of parent-raising point to physical benefits from anti-bodies the parents provide (I have no idea about this, I've never bred or handfed a bird) and general "birdiness" of their birds. In other words, the birds learn to be birds and then learn to be companions to people.

The handraisers point to the bird-human bond that feeding provides. They also point to years of successful companion parrot raising that handraising has provided.

I got my ekkie at 10 months on a rehome. He's a wonderful bird and was handraised. I've never met a parent-raised ekkie but the people on my list that have them swear by them and the breeders. Not sure if there is a "correct" answer to this question...

[Booda's Butt]

The antibodies that babies can recieve from parent raising makes perfect sense - I had completely over looked this. In that sense, I can completely see why some may prefer to let the parents do their jobs.

With the birds that potentially "forget" how to raise their young - how large of an issue is this? If you have a pair of breeding Conures for example, and the parents were handraised, and for whatever reason, they do not feed their young - then the breeder would have to hand-feed the babies themselves. But as a breeder, shouldn't you be prepared to do those sorts of things anyway? Even parent-raised or wild birds will sometimes just turn out to be bad parents and refuse to raise the young. If you had a pair of lovebirds that would not feed their young, what would the purpose of importing wild birds just to teach them to feed be? Why wouldn't you just resort to handfeeding the babies as opposed to pulling wild birds into captivity? Is this all tied back to the antibodies? (and btw - are there ways to additionally supplement the lost antibodies for babies that were hand-fed?)

I hope all my questions don't come off as rude or judgemental - I'm really interested in this discussion, and just want to learn more for both sides of the arguement and get more opinions - I realize this is very similar to human breast feeding versus commercially prepared formulas - there isn't a good answer, nor is there a right or wrong.

[Booda's Butt]

Steph - I also know about the lovebird bite - the first time I saw Cali at her old home, she was very cage aggressive and territorial. I didn't know this, and put my hand up to the cage, and in a flash she was right there with my finger in her beak, LoL. It hurt, but I didn't think anything of it (i've received worse bites) i put my hands down, and talked to her previous owner about her care and what not, but 5 minutes later, i lifted my hands up to take a piece of millet to offer to Cali, and i realize i had blood all over my hands! She had ripped off a bit of my cuticle, and it was bleeding like crazy, and I hadn't even known!

[mjm8321]

If you had a pair of lovebirds that would not feed their young, what would the purpose of importing wild birds just to teach them to feed be? Why wouldn't you just resort to handfeeding the babies as opposed to pulling wild birds into captivity? Is this all tied back to the antibodies? (and btw - are there ways to additionally supplement the lost antibodies for babies that were hand-fed?)

I don't think the birds are being imported strictly for teaching captive birds to feed their young, but actually as a conservation matter (especially in the case of Abbys and the other rarer lovies) as well as getting new genetics into the breeding pool. As for the antibodies, I agree it's much like breastfeeding with humans, no lab can re-produce the same antibodies that parents give their young, but personally I feel it's much more than just that. Our parent raised chicks seem better socialized within our little flock. You can add "good bacteria" to handfeeding formula, but I'm sure some of what they would get from their real mother is not in the mix. This is probably part of the reason that breeders that handfeed wait until the chicks are about 2-3 weeks old....that and it's a lot easier feeding a two week old than a "newborn".


I hope all my questions don't come off as rude or judgemental - I'm really interested in this discussion, and just want to learn more for both sides of the argument and get more opinions
I think most here will agree that the more we discuss and research, the better for the lovies and all birds. The more we learn, the better our fids quality of life.

[bellarains]

Nope,

I don't think anyone would take your questions as rude. We are all very interested in this subject, and alot of us have birds that were parent raised, and the differences are always interesting.

In my case, my handfed baby bonded so closely with me that he has still not totally accepted a mate. By that I mean, he loves her, he preens her, he feeds her, he just can't quiet figure out how mating with his own kind is achieved.

As Barb mentioned, it also can be an issue lovies knowing how to care for and feed their own young, as they never experienced this for themselves. I'm sure there are exceptions to everything, but it is a possibility.

I got my parent raised lovie at the age of 2 years old. Lacey had never really been held or out of the aviary. She is the sweetest thing ever :D

[linda040899]

In other words, the birds learn to be birds and then learn to be companions to people.
This is an extremely interesting thread and I also agree that there may not be a definite answer one way or the other. The one thing I can say is that I think handraised babies tend to have more behavioral issues than parent raised. I have several larger parrots that are shining examples of this. Ginger (CAG) is my imported bird. She knows she's a bird and she knows how to behave in a flock situation. Everyone within the walls of my home is the "flock." She's very easy going and not aggressive with anyone who isn't aggressive with her. How well I remember the morning she walked into my bedroom where Dao and Georgia live just to visit. Dao likes her and had no problems with the visit. Georgia wasn't sure but didn't make any actions to chase Ginger away. Ginger was just feeling social, nothing else. I also have never had any feather plucking problems with her and Greys are notorious for this. She's absolutely feather perfect.

Dao came to live with me when he was 11 weeks old and I finished handfeeding him. Lori stated that handfeeding babies bond to their handfeeders. I can attest to that, particularly with larger parrots because they take longer to wean. Dao is my bird and mine alone. His trust in me is implict. Georgia is also handfed and her handfeeder abruptly left the pet shop that had Georgia and Georgia became almost uncontrollable. The person she depended on was gone and, in her mind, no food = death. Being a macaw, she can bite hard enough to draw blood and she did. She bit out of fear. Pet shop personnel were afraid of her so Georgia spent a lot of time locked up in her cage until she came to live with me. While I'm always there for her, she still shows fear of being abandoned again. It's like a human child that was suddenly orphaned. I've been working with her in a different manner for the past couple of months and I think I'm starting to trust her a bit more. Trust goes both ways when it comes to larger parrots! We may hit a common ground one of these yrs!!

Harley (TAG) is hand raised and was badly plucked when he came to live with me. His owners were divorcing and neither of them wanted him. All he wants/needs is to know that someone is here and someone will pay attention to him. He's in perfect feather right now and I credit that to 2 things. He's learning from Ginger and he's more secure with the conditions of where he's living. Like Robin, I don't have to be with him 24/7. He just needs to know I'm here (flock mentality).

I, personally, think that hand-raising is a double edged sword. I do it when I have no other options but those birds still have to learn how to be birds/flock members. I'm not a bird, so I can't teach them that. I can teach them how to interact with people but they are still birds and need to know what that's like, too.

One of the biggest breeding tragedies is what's happened to Cockatoos. In order to keep them as pets, a good number of them hatch in incubators. I won't quote a percentage but a large number of Toos don't feed their young, let alone hatch them! Baby Toos stay with their parents for most of their first year of life and it's a constant learning process.

These are just a few of my thoughts on hand-raising.

[Booda's Butt]

Now I'm curious - it seems that many Lovebird owners (here anyway) seem to be concerned about their lovebirds not being able to make bird-bird bonds. As an owner of only 3 birds - I would not see that as a bad thing. I chose hand-fed birds because I wanted them to bond to me, I wanted them to see me as their mate, etc. But I suppose that is an awefully self-fish thing to want out of a bird. But my question is - do Lovebirds do better bonded to another bird? I had not planned on getting another, I wanted Cali to be able to be handle-able like Booda and Mia, and I thought if I got another lovebird for her to possibly bond to, then she would have reason to not want anything to do with me. -or at least something along those lines.

I also want to say that I've always heard that the bird will form a mother-baby bond with the handfeeder, and then later can form a mate-mate bond, so for example, Booda had the mother-bird bond with his handfeeder, but when he was weaned, he came to me, and he is a very well socialized bird, but is still clearly bonded to me, therefore he had formed a mate-mate bond with me. (he has regurgitated for me once, a nice soggy yummy banana Zupreem pellet, lol)

what do you think about that thought?

[linda040899]

Karin,
Every single one of my lovebirds has a mate if they want one, including my personal pets. Birds are capable of dual relationships, bird/bird and bird/human. They have each other when I'm not here and I'm included in the equation when I am here. Lovebirds are extremely social and all of mine will sleep so close to their partners that you could not put a piece of paper betwen them. I've had many customers who started out with just one lovebird come to me and purchase a companion for that bird.

I won't say this is true 100% of the time, and this comes down to knowing your own bird. Echo, my single male Abby, does not want a mate. I'm enough company for him and that's his choice. If he wanted a companion, I would be more than willing to provide one for him. There are several other members here that have the same scenario and that's what works for them.

[LauraO]

But as a breeder, shouldn't you be prepared to do those sorts of things anyway? Even parent-raised or wild birds will sometimes just turn out to be bad parents and refuse to raise the young.

I think everyone should be prepared to handfeed and care for chicks in their home if their parents are unable to do it. It's a reality I think a lot of pet owners are not prepared for when their pet lovies have chicks and don't feed or care for their babies.

[Janie]

But my question is - do Lovebirds do better bonded to another bird?

Karin, all that I have read in books and here says that SINGLE lovebirds are just fine being just that, single, if they have a human person to bond to. The old myth about lovebirds needing another lovebird to be happy is (again, from what I've read, etc.) not true. Because I do have one bird (my older adopted bird) who is very bonded to me, I chose to get two more so that they can bond to each other and hopefully allow me to be a small part of their flock but never be their "one and only" like I am to Oliver. Oliver was never abused but was neglected before we adopted him so I felt he deserved "all of me" and it would not be fair to him to bring in a single bird who he would likely never bond to and would require a lot of attention from me, therefore, he'd get less. Sometimes, I have to step back from my new boys, cause they are so darn cute, and remember that while I do want them to be friendly to me (and they are, :D) they are my bonded pair and to make them into the kind of bird that Oliver is, if it could be done, would require giving them the same shoulder time and separating them so that they would choose me over each other and with them, that is not what I want. Wouldn't be fair to Oliver. :)

This is a great thread and I've enjoyed keeping up with it.....

[LauraO]

This thread is great and has me thinkin' too :). I used to want a velcro birdy and when I truly had one I felt like I just couldn't meet all his needs because he wanted me to be like another lovebird and with him 24/7. That was my Chopper who we lost and I would have given anything to have back, but with my birds now I like them to all have mates especially since we have so many. In fact, not too long ago our young Cobalt Seagreen Chewie was getting very velcro like and was constantly hounding me. I love him but not 24/7 so I got him Eva, another lovebirdy. Our relationship is still close and if someone is jumping and crawling all over me there's a good chance it's him but now his interests are more diverse and when I'm not here he has Eva.

I'm even seriously thinking about a possible mate for Cookie, our Meyer's, though I'm taking the thought very slowly.

[BarbieH]

Do lovies do better bonded to another lovebird? I agree that it depends on the bird. However, I have read that when a bird is bonded to a human, there need to be limits to the relationship; that it may not be healthy for the bird to look to the human as a mate. The Association of Avian Veterinarians has cited potential behavioral problems including feather plucking and chronic egg laying.

Sam is my one single bird. He has no other bird in his cage with him. However, he socializes with the others from time to time, and Gracie seems to be teaching him how to feed her. (I guess she wants a spare slave in case anything happens to George, Didjit, Tim, or I. :roll: ) I try to be alert to signs of frustration in Sam that would signal to me that he may need a regular companion in his cage. For the time being he seems perfectly happy. Like Linda's Echo, we raised him from day 1 out of necessity.

Gracie started out as a single bird. She is a bit of a mystery, since she came to us as a stray. I don't know if she ever had a mate or if she was handraised. I don't know how old she is. I do know that since we got George for her, she is a lot calmer with my husband and I and much less nippy. She is a happier bird, though that may also be due to other factors (mellowing, finally raising a chick).

I agree, this has been a very interesting thread. :)

[Janie]

I won't say this is true 100% of the time, and this comes down to knowing your own bird. Echo, my single male Abby, does not want a mate.

Linda, we were posting at the same time so I didn't see this till after I replied but, you just summed up my situation with Oliver. I would have been very happy to get him a companion, heck, I'd get that bird a car if he wanted one, :lol, but at his age I new there were no guarantees and that he likely would not bond to another bird and then there I'd be....with TWO birds needing me as their companion! Talk about multi-tasking, :lol! In a perfect world, I'd love to have lots of lovies, all with their own companion and all that would consider me part of the flock. I have never seen anything as sweet as the way Shy and Big Boi cuddle up to each other....makes my heart sing! :)

Quote:
"This thread is great and has me thinkin' too . I used to want a velcro birdy and when I truly had one I felt like I just couldn't meet all his needs because he wanted me to be like another lovebird and with him 24/7."

Laura, I HEAR YOU! I have one velcro birdy and while I love it, I worry sick about him every time I leave the house! Shy and Big Boi could live w/o me forever, long as someone fed them and gave them toys, :lol, but Oliver wants me and to be ON me all of the time! Sometimes I have to tell my husband, "PLEASE TAKE THIS BIRD....I need a break!" :D Then I have to leave the room or he calls for me the whole time!

Barb, after reading your reply, I wondered if my relationship with Oliver is OK for him and I think that because he is older, he does need all this extra time and attention and human/buddy contact that he missed out on for so long. He seems to be very happy and while he does "pick/pluck" one area, it's the same area that was already plucked when I adopted him and it's the only area. No better, no worse and not an obvious spot. There are days when he does get less attention but his behavior seems to remain steady.

[lovebirdcrazy11]

Wow my pointless question turned into an interesting debate.

So the verdict goes I can hand-raise parrotlets, since they fledge at about the same time, and have similar behavior.

From what breeders say, Green Cheeks and cockatiels are left better hand-fed.

[Janie]

Oh, so THAT was the question! :lol I have no idea what to tell you but this has been a great thread to follow! :D If you'll read all the post here, a lot of them, hopefully you'll find your answer! :)

Looks like you did read all and edited your reply....you can do it! :D OK, I'm glad you got your answer. Personally, I would and did buy hand raised babies but by choice, I would never do it myself. Again, by choice, I have three males and will never have to do it! :lol

[Z28Taxman]

Laura, I HEAR YOU! I have one velcro birdy and while I love it, I worry sick about him every time I leave the house!

Ditto with Ditto (bad pun intended :rofl: ) But he's so happy to see me when I get home. He sits on my shoulder or wrist while I'm getting his veggies ready and refilling his other food and his water bowl. Sometimes he can't wait for the water and will run down and grab a sip or take a bath right there. I don't know if he would accept a mate, he won't even let me have one. He tried his darndest to run the last one off. :rofl:

[Rubygem]

Once again looks like I might have missed a great thread, but been busy with kids and hand feeding ….LOL

Needless to say I believe in hand feeding baby lovies. But it isn’t for everyone, and not everyone can do it. I have had pet store/parent raised birds, wild caught Amazons, (many many years ago), and hand fed birds. There is a big difference in the way they except people, but there is a similarity as well. It all depends on the birds.

I have two Green Cheek Conures right now that where hand-fed, I can’t handle them without stressing them out, so we bought a bigger cage with lots of toys, and interact with them very little – besides talking to them, and feeding and taken care of their needs. They have each other, and they are future breeders. They are still in the family room to get use to us, and they do show some intreast in me :D. But then I have another pair of GCC, and the hen loves me, but the cock tolerates me, he is coming around more and more everyday he will even come visit me when I’m in my room by myself, leaving the hen on the cage (she had her wings clipped too closely and can not fly yet, she is getting her flight feathers, but she doesn’t know how to fly :( ) This GCC was hand-fed along with a Sun Conure we got from the same breeder, and both of them are very afraid of hands.

When I had my Amazons, it didn’t take very long for them to except me into their flock, and they were very tame…but they weren’t snuggle bugs. (but I don’t blame them, I was just surprised that they excepted me from what all humans have put them through as quickly as they did - it took them less than a week to allow me in their flock). I have a greenwing Macaw that I finished hand-feeding, and she is my bud. She loves me, to the point she wasn’t letting anyone else into our flock, so we fixed this by allowing everyone else tend to her needs, and I didn’t interact with her, until she accepted the others. Now she loves my daughter, and really relies on my husband, tolerates my son, (she loves listening to him, and watching him, but she wouldn’t go to him if her life depended on it – he has high functioning Autism, and is too hurky jerky for her, but his speech pattern just intrigues her.) But she wants her momma, and she wants to be craddled like a baby. :blush:

I have had many clutches of Lovies that I have hand fed, sometimes only one in the clutch, to as many as 20 and over at the same time, and I have noticed that the clutches with only one lovie takes longer to wean than that of a bigger clutch, because they do learn from each other, and I believe they do need each other to learn how to interact with another bird…IMO. Each and every one of my clutches have been different….I call this clutch of 7 my rock and roll clutch because they will literally fall over backwards to get fed, and this is the most aggressive clutch I have ever fed…told my hubby I must have all hens. :eek:

I guess what I’m trying to say here is it all depends on the personality of the birds, and it depends on your understanding of them. After meeting this group I believe the key to birds is how we socialize and understand them. I’m very lucky to have a very supportive family, and I feed them, while everyone else interacts with them, not just me, because my goal is for my babies to go to their new homes accepting everyone in the “new” Family to be in their flock. But even doing all I can do with the babies, when they go to their new homes, it is up to the new owners to learn their bird, and to respect them and to trust them so that that bird can do the same with them. I believe if you give the bird a chance to fit into the new environment, that then they can be a very important part of the family. I have had customers buy one bird, then come back and buy another one, and then tell me how different the babies are. :happy: Even though they all are loving (so far) with the few that are nippy and it turns to biting. So I try to explain to everyone that birds are like children, they all have their own personalities, their own likes and dislikes, and if we can remember this then we can learn to get along so much better with a feathered family member. The other key is to respect them, and learn how to read and speak their language, and never push ourselves on them, and force them to do things that we want them to do. It doesn’t matter if it is a hand-fed, a parent raised or a wild caught bird…..what matters is learning what the needs of your birds are, and providing a healthy, happy environment for them.

These are my thoughts, and only mine. :)
Rubygem

[Booda's Butt]

Wow, see what happens when I fall behind! I had a bout of vertigo last night - severe enough to cause a motion-sickness kinda throw-up feeling :x ...yuck..but anyway, computer last night was off limits for me. (which meant I had to cram for an exam and type a 5 page paper this morning before classes >: ).

anway!! :p I think the general "answer" to this debate is that it just depends on a lot more than the actual act of hand-feeding, etc.

"This GCC was hand-fed along with a Sun Conure we got from the same breeder, and both of them are very afraid of hands. "

I think this can definately happen - the act of handfeed alone is not enough, being rough and mechanical - mix formula, check temp, fill syringe, hold bird, feed, rinse and clean up. can definately do more harm than good. Though this is literally what is meant by handfeeding, i guess I had meant more of the handfeed + socialization process. For the most part, handfed babies that come from loving breeders who take the time to give TLC to each individual bird, are very sweet. Whatever may change in his life thereafter can make him a nippy, bitter bird again, but that doesn't necessarily relate back to being handfed, and not parent raised - and vice versa.

also mentioned on this thread - the issue of companionship in birds - more specifically lovebirds. I know the old myth of "if you want lovebirds, you must buy two or they will DIE! :omg: " is just not true. I'm wondering now if I should consider getting Cali a mate. as far as i know, her previous owners had two lovebirds, one belonged to the son, the other to the daughter. the birds were not housed together, and spent very little time together when out of their cages. So Cali, being a handfed lovie, may never have had a REAL bond with another bird. She surely is not bonded to me, she tolerates me now. Will step up like a pro when asked, but will also take off to her cage if she has the chance. In this sort of situation - would you suggest a mate? or would this really be just a personal preference? In a typical day in this household, about 2 hours of the day this house is empty of humans. But, the birds have each other - though not housed together, I'm convinced their conversations with each other has some sort of socializing/boredom relief -ness to it.


btw - i must comment on how wonderful i think this forum and it's members are. Even though I'm new, I have gotten more answers and learned more here than my rapid reading through caresheets, petstore books, and internet pages 8o . Plus, all the members are just so incredibly nice, it amazes me! I've been a part of many forums with this same sort of set up before, where any slight disagreement could turn into a big internet debate (with a lot of hostility :mad: ). so...you guys are great! :grouphug1

[Janie]

I've been a part of many forums with this same sort of set up before, where any slight disagreement could turn into a big internet debate (with a lot of hostility

Karin, :lol, we've had a few (but very few) debates that were headed in that direction but I think w/o exception, it's been about a sick or injured bird that is not taken immediately to a vet. Linda and all the moderators/administrators make it very clear that no one here is an avian vet and that any sick/injured bird needs to see a vet at the very first sign of illness or immediately after an injury occurs. A couple of times, I was away for a day and came back to find a thread that started out...."my bird isn't eating, drinking and is falling off his perch...what should I do????" About thirty replies later, and ALL replies saying TAKE THAT BIRD TO A VET, I get to the end of the post and find that the bird has died. :( Just breaks my heart and makes me furious when a bird who really needs a vet isn't taken to one. So many excuses. No money, too far to drive, no time, etc....none of them good! But really, those are the only threads that I've ever read here that almost drive me to drink and make me want to :cry:

I have also really enjoyed this thread and have learned more than I expected. For one thing, I'm finding more and more how much I enjoy having two birds that are bonded to each other and not to me. At least not nearly to the degree that Oliver is. They will step up and will take a shoulder ride but they are happiest when in each others company as long as I keep the food and toys coming! :D I have turned my older bird into a velcro birdie and it does limit my freedom! I love him, oh boy, so much but there are times I'd love to see him happy to go to his cage and play and at his age, that is not going to happen and he's not going to change. While he is "family friendly", if I'm in the same room with him, he makes it known to the other family member that's hosting him that he wants ME and only me! So, there are pro's and con's to having one that is totally human bonded. I don't know what is best for Cali but I'll bet you'll give it a lot of thought and come up with the best solution!

BTW, I'm sorry about the vertigo.....I swear to you that I think I had my first bout with it on Monday. My mother had it for years and I think she passed it on to me. :omg: I hope not!

[Paulette]

Great Disscussion.....I agree.....and I only had one more thought to bring up....what about size difference in parent raised birds and hand fed? When I was shopping for a mate for Jake, one breeder that had 2 month old hand fed birds that were not tame....and she said they were smaller than normal due to the hand feeding formula.....so I asked what is the point of hand feeding then? and of course she said so they would be tame!.....anyway.....I suspect that Sunny and Peaches were hand fed....because they aren't thrilled about hands and sometimes will step up and don't bite at all, but they are smaller than my other lovies...skinny wise.....if you just want a tame bird it would be ok, but if you are breeding for health or size.....while I was studying the genetics on Liz's lovebirds I did see a reference to what is more appropriate for show and it was a bird with a plumper looking head and body.....the breeders I ended up gettting are healthier looking although they won't eat anything I give them but SEEDS!!! :x

[LauraO]

I thought I'd share the thing that has always perplexed and kind of disturbed me about handfeeding is the parents inability to raise a family and how having their babies taken away may affect them physically, mentally, and emotionally. My Babygirl and Won Ton have been allowed to raise several clutches of birds and it's a great experience for them and us. I also had to pull and handfeed her last clutch due to her chronic laying and both parents were devestated and they looked and looked and looked for the nestbox and babies. This made me sad and I wonder how it affects those birds who are never allowed to raise a clutch.

Just some more thoughts :)

[Booda's Butt]

Hmm..those are both really interesting thoughts, that I haven't myself put much thought into. I have not bred birds, nor have I met breeding pairs when they were sitting on eggs, so I really don't know how devastated they would be once the babies are taken out. That would be a great question to ask all the breeders who do pull the eggs or babies to handfeed and such.

As far as size, I don't think I have personally noticed a difference between hand-fed and parent raised, but I wouldn't doubt that certain handfeed formulas just don't have enough good stuff in them. I've heard the Kaytee brand is decent, and know a few breeders (of Poicephalus mostly) that use it and seem to be ok with it.

[linda040899]

I have not bred birds, nor have I met breeding pairs when they were sitting on eggs, so I really don't know how devastated they would be once the babies are taken out. That would be a great question to ask all the breeders who do pull the eggs or babies to handfeed and such.
I stopped handfeeding quite a few yrs ago because I couldn't stand to see the reaction of my parent birds when their babies "disappeared." I learned the breeding business based on pulling baby lovebirds just before they open their eyes. I was told to take the babies just after mom fed them for the night so that way, I wouldn't have to feed them again until the morning. I did it for a few yrs and my heart finally got the best of me. I started experimenting with parent fed, human socialized and I found it worked well. Now I only handfeed when I have no fosters and it's a matter of life/death for the chicks.

Size-wise, both handfed/parent fed babies will be normal size once they are 6 weeks old. Parent fed ones will be bigger from the beginning but the handfed ones will catch up and, if all are tame, you can't see much, if any, difference.

[BarbieH]

I really don't know how devastated they would be once the babies are taken out. That would be a great question to ask all the breeders who do pull the eggs or babies to handfeed and such.

Just before Sam hatched, Gracie's temper was extremely volatile. She had been chasing George away from the nestbox and I sometimes had to remove him to a different cage so that he could rest. (Gracie seemed happier too.) Sam's egg was in an incubator to prevent peeling, and his hatch was assisted. I had initially replaced his egg with a dummy egg so Grace was not upset by the switch; she still had her egg. However, it would have been risky to return Sam to the nestbox, as fierce as Gracie was being.

When Bongo and Barney needed a little handfeeding from the start, they were always returned to the nestbox when feedings were over. Betty didn't like the disturbance but the chicks were always returned, unharmed, which helped her learn that we wouldn't harm them.

Didjit was another assisted hatch, and for that clutch Gracie was in a much better state. I took her and George to the bathroom so they wouldn't see me going into their nestbox, and I returned newly hatched Didjit and a piece of his shell to the box, so Gracie would think he had hatched out in the nestbox. Her immediate bond with her chick was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.