OT - Horrible Loss

[Enko_chan]

This isn't a bird post, but I've drifted away from my betta fish forum, there was ENDLESS, RIDICULOUS DRAMA there that the moderators got involved in unnecessarily and the forum manager did nothing about.

Anyhow, I thought being animal-lovers all, in here, and having many breeders of birds and other animals, this would be understood.

In the past 2 days I lost almost all of my female breeders. No symptoms. No nothing. I have many years of experience and have an enitre fish pharmacy that I keep up-to-date, though most of it just expires and get thrown out, if ANYTHING at all had been out of place, I could have done something. I've tested the water for all parameters within reason, and everything appears right on. None of my male fish, thus far, are affected.

These are not pet shop betta fish. They are imported from around the world, and many of them were hand-picked from years of breeding my own lines. This is my livelihood. I cannot afford to replace them, nor can I afford to get into more extensive testing. There is no contamination between tanks, all of my breeders are separate, have their own net, etc. Nothing, and I mean, nothing, has changed. We are assuming it is something hormonal in the water.

Aside from the lost money and the fact that none of these fish had seen their first spawn, I get attached to my fish. I recognize that they will live 2 years, maybe 3, 4 at the most except in unusual cases, but this is quite the blow. When I found the first fish, our favorite one out of all of them, dead, we assumed she had some kind of internal problem that caused sudden death. Then, the rest of them dropped without warning.

I'm not really looking for advice, though I would be happy to hear it if anyone has an informed opinion on what may have happened. I figured if anyone would understand this sort of thing, it would be you guys. :very_sad:

[Flip]

Oh sweetie.
{{{{{ENKO}}}}}
That's horrible! I wonder what possibly could have done it? I assume you feed the males the same thing as you do the females? And you've checked for ammonia?

I'm so, so sorry. Let me know if there is anything I can do by way of support. ***HUGS***

I'm sure you've researched already, but in case not I found this at http://www.oneworldinternetcafe.com/betta/betta_fish_diseases.html


Oödinium pilularis

Parasitic skin flagellate

Also known as, Rust, Gold Dust Disease, Oödinium, Velvet

Description:

Oödinium is one of the more common diseases in cultured fish. This tiny parasite is capable of decimating an entire fish population, usually before you realize what the problem really is. It strikes both fresh and saltwater fish equally.

In freshwater fish Velvet is caused by either Oödinium pilularis or Oödinium limneticum. In marine fish Oödinium ocellatum causes Coral Fish disease. All three species are similar to the well known parasite, Ich.

Oödinium uses flagellum to adhere to fish and then forms rod pseudopodia which penetrates the skin and gill filaments. This destroys the cells and allows the parasite to feed on the nutrients inside. Eventually the parasite matures and divides into dozens of cells that drop off the original host and spread out in the tank in search of new hosts to feed on. They will die within a day if they fail to leach onto another host. They produce a white pustule on the host not unlike Ich but much finer. Sadly they are usually not seen in time and the host dies. Also, not unlike Ich, they are a common occurance in most pet store tanks but only become lethal when fish are stressed. (Poor water quality, temperature changes, handling etc.)

Symptoms:

Fish will scratch themselves against hard objects. (Trying to dislodge parasite)
Fish becomes lethargic
Fish display a loss of appetite.
Fish loses weight.
Fish displays rapid gill movement. (a universal sign of illness)
Fish clamp fins against body.
Fish developes a yellowish or rusty colored film on its skin. (telltale symptom - though hard to detect, try a flashlight beam on the fish in a dark setting. Look on the fins and gills.)
Fish's skin will eventually begin to peel off.

This parasite effects all fish, from fry to the aged but is particularly enamoured with Anabantoids, danios, goldfish, zebrafish, and killifish.

Treatment:

Oödinium is highly contagious and is usually in an advanced stage by the time you diagnose it, as such, it is important to take steps to treat it as soon as possible.
Raise water temperature (82 F will speed up the treatment)
Dim lights for several days (Oödinium is dependant on light)
Add aquarium salt (to aid the fish's breathing)
Treat with copper sulphate for ten days. (Atabrine -'Quinacrine hydrochloride', can also be used) The treatment is aimed at the free swimming parasite.
Discontinue carbon filtration during treatment. (carbon filters will remove the drugs from the water.)


Prevention:

Quarantine new fish for two weeks. (They will carry the parasite from the pet store)
Maintain high water quality
Provide fish with a nutritionally balanced diet

[Enko_chan]

Thank you for your support.

I've done extensive testing of water chemistry, but as far as levels of hormones and such in the water, is beyond my capacity to test here. The males and females eat the same food, have the same water, etc. Each has his/her own tank, each has their own net, there is no contamination. I could see perhaps one weak fish getting an opportunistic infection, or arriving here with a disease of some sort, but we take great pains not to cross-contaminate.

It wasn't velvet. I've got several different treatments for such and it causes obvious symptoms. These fish dropped dead with no weight loss, no lethargy, no loss of appetite, no clamping, no labored breathing, nothing. The best way to diagnose velvet is to shine a flashlight on them, the gold dusting shows up very well. I haven't had external parasites in my fishroom since I started using Indian Almond Leaf in my water years ago, with the exception of opportunistic infections in elderly fish- and even then, I haven't seen ich or velvet in any of my fish in many years.


The only thing that seems off about any of these fish, is that the place where they store their eggs seemed smaller than usual, reinforcing my idea that its something hormonal. This doesn't seem to be affecting my giant females.

I've preserved the bodies for futher study. My hands are too swollen and stiff to do the work myself, so I am having a colleague do it for me. Also, I'm writing to some of my fellow breeders from the International Betta Congress who may shed some light on it.

I'm in the process of writing a book about betta husbandry and much of it is on better treatment of diseases and the reasons for developmental problems in fry. Even so, I am at a loss here.

[linda040899]

((((((((((((((((((((((((Kristi)))))))))))))))))))) )))))

When I lived in NJ, my husband and I had fresh water fish for many, many years, and, personally, it sounds like something in the water has changed. Have you done any water changes recently? Perhaps one of your veterinarians could take a look at the remains of one of the fish and offer a cause of death.

I can appreciate how you feel about your fish. I, also got attached to the ones I had and I even went to far as to name them!

Hope you get to the bottom of this quickly!

[Enko_chan]

That's our guess, Linda. We name our fish, too. Our fry have numbers but the pets and breeders have names.

They died during the day immediately following a water change. The males are unharmed, even building bubblenests, and the giant females are the only survivors at this point.

Unfortunately, our R/O DI filter is broken. We only use that for breeding some of the more sensitive wild types, but it may have come in handy. We're going to pick some water up from a fish shop about 30 minutes from here, its very affordable, and its a well-run Ma & Pa shop. Hopefully, this will continue to not affect the males and giants females.

Thankfully, I saved some of my females from my black and white/copper shortfin line in the pet tank, who weren't my top choice for breeding but are acceptable, who are in a large tank that only requires water changes every three weeks. We're down to bare bones, but we can possibly set up at least 3 or 4 breeding tanks and start over from there. We started off from even more humble beginnings.

[Bubblelady]

Oh no! I'm so very sorry! You've already had enough loss for the decade :very_sad: Hugs.....

[LovelySydney]

I have no idea what might have happened but Im sorry for your losses = ( I know you feel about your babies & I know this is hard. I will keep you in my thoughts.

[bbslovie]

Hi, I'm so sorry to hear about your loss.:very_sad: :grouphug:



Barb

[Chickobee]

((((((((((( Hugs )))))))))))) I'm so sorry for your loss.

[michael]

I'm so sorry.....:(......obviously, all living things are sacred. .... Prayers that soon you'll find the cause, and that no others will be affected.

[Enko_chan]

Thank you all so much.

Still no problem with the males or giant females, and the girls in the pet tank who did not receive the last water change are fine as well. All of the males look great, all ready to mate and building bubblenests. Its a shame. We would have been setting up all the couples tomorrow morning.

As it stands, we are using other water as well as waiting a little while to be as sure as possible that any offspring they have won't be affected.

[FuzzyAga]

How horrible for you and your livelihood. I hope your investigation about the problem is fruitful.

[azreno]

So so so sorry for your loss! I cannot even begin to imagine how heart wrenching this is.

We used to breed a few fish in tanks and a big concern for us was the city would occasionally 'dose' the water with something and we always had to keep up with when the dosing would happen to make sure we didn't use that water during a change, it was easy though- the local shops would post whenever it would happen so everyone knew. That sure sounds like what could have happened to you.

[Janie]

I have no advice but just wanted to tell you how sorry I am. :(

[Enko_chan]

The males and giant females are doing fine still. Thank you again for all your support.