Plucking and self mutilation- help!

[Dodo]

Hello. I'm new to the community, recently joined hoping to get some advice on how to help my lovie, Frodo. She's a ten year old peachface, and I've had her since she was weaned. She's had a feather plucking problem for about 7 years now, which we believed might be hormonally motivated (the vet couldn't find anything physically wrong with her) and tried to lessen with preening toys, showers,a varied diet and distracting her when she started to pluck. The plucking reduced somewhat, but about 6 months ago I (along with Frodo) moved in with my boyfriend; she began plucking more frequently around the time of the move, and in the past month has begun to mutilate her leg. The vet did a full examination, with blood tests, and determined that there was no physical cause for the mutilation. She put Frodo in a collar to let the wound heal, and put her on a broad-spectrum antibiotic, a painkiller, vitamin D supplement, with a cream for the leg and a special flush to use on it before the cream. She was in the collar for two weeks, the wound completely healed, and the collar was removed. Three days later, she wounded herself again, much worse than the first time, and the vet put her back in the collar and back on the meds. I've been trying to keep her busy with foraging toys, showers, and as much attention as I can (I do have to go to work, though), leaving the radio on for her when I am out, as well as limiting the amount of light she gets and ensuring she has a quiet place to sleep. The vet suggested removing all toys that might stimulate mating behaviour and changing how I interact with her (head scratching, no cuddling) because the mutilating may be hormonal. Or it may be stress related due to the move (and her jealousy of my boyfriend; she bites him whenever she can and even after three years of trying to socialize her with him, still shows no sign of accepting him). We've been considering getting her a companion (but probably not another lovebird, as we don't want to encourage mating behaviour- we were considering either a green cheeked conure or a pionus in a separate cage) so that she isn't alone all day in the hopes that it may help. The collar will be coming off again soon, and I'm so afraid she will damage herself again; what else can I do to help her get well?

[FuzzyAga]

Welcome!

I have two lovies, Juanita and Petey. I have a plucker. Petey is the one who plucks; he's been plucking for about two-years. There was a period of about one-month when he plucked himself to a crusty mess, then I patted some neem oil with aloe vera gel on the wound for about two weeks (maybe less) and the wound healed, and he seemed to pluck less, so I stopped applying the gel because I didn't want to stress him anymore. He hates hands. Now he's back to plucking--but no blood--so that's good.

I've owned lovies for about 4-years.

You're far more experienced at 10-years! You've distressed yourself trying to unearth medical causes, relational causes (yes, I think she's jealous), hormonal causes, just about anything, anything that could be causing this abnormal behavior. I know how difficult this is.

The only thing I've read that could cure this plucking is putting the lovie into an aviary environment. Maybe... but the odds of curing this are better in an aviary interaction with other lovies, other roosting spots, other cues that mimic the wild. Practically speaking, for me, there's no way to test this setup.

I try to help him by telling him, "Enough, Petey" and if that doesn't stop him, I tell him, "Don't make me come over there!" Sometimes, if he's really absorbed in plucking, he even ignores the last, so I walk over to him and gently blow on him to get his attention. Then he shakes his feathers and stops. If Petey is preening normally, obviously I don't tell him to stop, but once I'm aware that he's busy in that bald patch, I do try to disrupt his attention.

Some people have used the e-collar as a maintenance and preventative tool, and I wish I could, but Petey was so distressed by his collar that he was ready to die. He sat fluffed on the bottom of his cage, under his food bowl, with his eyes closed. This is a parrot who never rarely goes to the bottom of the cage. His collar came off the next day.

I can commiserate with you, but I have no pearls of wisdom, sorry. :(

[michael]

......... We've been considering getting her a companion (but probably not another lovebird, as we don't want to encourage mating behaviour- we were considering either a green cheeked conure or a pionus in a separate cage) so that she isn't alone all day in the hopes that it may help. The collar will be coming off again soon, and I'm so afraid she will damage herself again; what else can I do to help her get well?

Hi! ... And welcome to our community. .. I keep two beautiful lovebirds who are also self abusers. First is Goofy, who mutilates. And second is B.B., who perhaps like Frodo is more so a hormonal plucker. ... Like yourself, not only at times do I fear their behavior may worsen, but for Goof especially, who strips away layers of skin, secondary infection is of the greatest concern. .... Antibiotics? .. As long as the wounds are healing and there's no signs of illness, we do our best without them. No need to suppress the immune system unless we absolutely have to. ... For Goof's issues, being that they are rather severe, an ecollar must be used at times as a way to avoid serious injury. In an unwelcome sense though, ecollars for some parrots are much like a security blanket. ... B.B., fiesty little bugger he is, despite the fact he's missing a few feathers, seems to be cruising along just fine. With the exception of a one time test of hormone therapy, we are currently at a point where its been better to leave his behavior well enough alone.

About Frodo. ... Often, there can be more than one reason involved that initiates self abusive behavior. ... Hormones for one. An illness maybe. Add to this separation anxiety, and it only compounds the problem. ... While there's never an easy cure, if there is one at all, its knowing your doing the best you can just to manage things. So far, I think you've done very well with Frodo. ... Has she ever been DNA'd for gender? .... How large is her cage? ... The reason i've outlined your mention of a companion, is that I hope you give it plenty of thought. If separation anxiety is a factor, this option may do far more harm than good. .... Should you ultimately decide to go ahead with it anyways, perhaps a low maintenance bird such as a finch would do better. That way, at least in the event their relationship proves unsuccessful, should you have to return it (gosh forbid), a finch (or two) would be less likely to suffer emotionally than a more cultured species. ... Just a thought.

[NickyBeth]

I had read once on our forum about another member that was going through a plucking issue and they thought that this would work well for their bird.

http://www.thesockbuddy.com/ -- Apparently, you can make a sock like sweater for your bird and it keeps them warm and helps to prevent plucking because they are wearing a sweater. I have no idea if it works, but it's just a thought to throw out there. I imagine you could sew some "buttons" on the sock so that if the bird wants to preen/play with the sock...they could go to town and have fun with the buttons!!

[shinbatsu]

A lovebird in a sock...haha post pics if you decide to do that, I'd like to see it.

Have you tried bitter apple spray? Birds hate the taste.

[Dodo]

Thanks for the commiseration...I will perhaps look into the neem oil...I tried mixing aloe vera juice in with her bathing water to soothe the skin, although right now I can't get at her plucked area as it's covered by the collar (she plucked a patch at the top of her back before starting on her leg). Unfortunately a move to an aviary environment seems rather impossible for Frodo, as we live in a city apartment.
I'm sorry to hear your lovie has this problem as well...it's so sad and worrying.

[Dodo]

Thanks for your response. It's reassuring to know that others have dealt with this problem in their birds and still been able to maintain a happy, healthy lifestyle for them regardless.

Frodo has never been DNA'd, we made a guess regarding her gender due to behaviour (attempting to nest, territorial aggressiveness, assuming mating posture, etc.) so it might not be 100% accurate. Her cage is about 18X18X30.

I'm new to using the collar; she seems to adapt surprisingly well to wearing it. She tears around her cage as usual (she was a little off-balance and skittish for the first few hours); I put a towel in the bottom so that if she falls she won't be injured. Is this potentially something I can continue to use to prevent further injury if her behaviour continues? Is it something I could learn to put on her myself, (much as I'd prefer her not to have to wear it, but she was really gouging herself deeply and lost a lot of blood) rather than having to run her to the vet every time it may need to be put back on?

And thanks for the advice on the second bird. I am giving it a lot of thought...and won't be running out to get one anytime soon.

[Dodo]

The sock seems like a cute idea, although I'm not sure it would protect her leg from being gnawed...although she does love buttons and it may provide a distraction. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Dodo]

I haven't tried bitter apple spray...is that something available from a pet store? I would have to wait until the wound is healed first, I think. I wouldn't want to irritate it or prevent the medicated cream from working (she did seem to have a slight infection in the cut). Thanks for the suggestion!

[FuzzyAga]

As for your question about learning to put the e-collar on yourself, hard to say... Are you able to handle your lovie or will she chew your hands bloody? Do you feel capable of handling your wriggly lovie and maneuvering the piece of plastic? If this turns out to be a two-person job, do you have someone who can assist you? Confidence comes with experience, so eventually, you may not have any trouble putting the collar on yourself.

Lastly, do you want to be known as the person who puts this thing around her neck, or would it be better for the vet to be known as the evil one? Or better yet, maybe you can develop and use positive re-inforcement techniques and turn this collaring experience into a fun, positive time for Frodo? You know your lovie and yourself best.

You could ask your vet, but I think he/she might have a conflict of interest. I don't mean to cast your vet in this kind of light, but am merely saying that you shouldn't be surprised if he/she gently says no. Your vet might want to look at the area each and every time collaring is required as a precaution against infection, and other nasties.

Other forum members may have additional input. :)

[personatus]

bitter apple spray helped one of mine who plucked. :)

[michael]

......Frodo has never been DNA'd, we made a guess regarding her gender due to behaviour (attempting to nest, territorial aggressiveness, assuming mating posture, etc.) so it might not be 100% accurate. Her cage is about 18X18X30.

I'm new to using the collar; she seems to adapt surprisingly well to wearing it. She tears around her cage as usual (she was a little off-balance and skittish for the first few hours); I put a towel in the bottom so that if she falls she won't be injured. Is this potentially something I can continue to use to prevent further injury if her behaviour continues? Is it something I could learn to put on her myself, (much as I'd prefer her not to have to wear it, but she was really gouging herself deeply and lost a lot of blood) rather than having to run her to the vet every time it may need to be put back on?.....

Although most self mutilators are male, there's always the other possibilty. Especially with leg injury. Has she ever laid an egg? .... Aside from removing all her toys, is there anything around thats safe for her to chew on? ... Despite any nesty behavior, have you tried offering any items she'd be less likely to mate with i.e. sticks, small branches, strips of leather, a swing, little bells (clacker safe), etc?..... Regarding her cage. .. Even for a single lovebird, 18 X 18 may not allow her enough room to remain occupied. Finding ways towards redirecting her behavior might be the key.

What type of ecollar are you using? .. Bubble...Eliza? ... If your comfortable applying the ecollar, and as long as it can be done without physical injury, thats your choice. If in your eye's the process appears to have any lasting effect emotionally, then again, its up to you to reconsider. More often than not though, emotionally thats not an issue. Physical injury on the other hand, is a big concern, so it may be best to have someone help towel her... I see no problem keeping a towel down for safety against falls, especially if she's unstable. Besides, most birds shouldn't spend much time down there anyways, unless of course they really are super nesty.

Be VERY careful with the sock method. This can lead to serious if not fatal constriction. Supervision is a must at all times!

As a note, "bitter apple" is a product which contains isopropanol "alcohol". ... Not only will it BURN any raw or tender skin, but may dry out and irritate as well. .. It is meant ONLY to be used topically on the outer portions of the feathers. NOT leg trauma. ... Be careful with any such products. Not only can they cause more harm, but parrots might attempt to remove them. ... Although my advice is to simply avoid such products, I have a feeling your well aware of that already. .... Please keep us posted!

How about a goldfish?..........:)

[FuzzyAga]

Oh, yes, I almost forgot. Initially, when I applied the neem gel -- actually, gobbed it on -- I carelessly got some of the gel on the surrounding healthy feathers instead of restricting the gel just to the bald area, and poor Petey stripped additional healthy feathers off his back, in his distress at having yucky feathers, so they definitely do not like stuff coating their feathers. (I'm always learning. :))

After that, I applied the gel thinly and carefully, making sure to always leave a clear border that was free of the gel so that the feathers remained free of the gel. I also held Petey until the thin application dried, which took about a minute. He did not like the additional minute of being held! Wriggley, wriggley!

My advice is to buy the biggest cage you can afford (in the U.S. try Craig's List; some members got a really great deal--$40! for a lightly used cage double the size of your current one!).

[personatus]

As a note, "bitter apple" is a product which contains isopropanol "alcohol". ... Not only will it BURN any raw or tender skin, but may dry out and irritate as well. .. It is meant ONLY to be used topically on the outer portions of the feathers. NOT leg trauma. ... Be careful with any such products. Not only can they cause more harm, but parrots might attempt to remove them. ... Although my advice is to simply avoid such products, I have a feeling your well aware of that already. .... Please keep us posted!

The bitter apple spray I use actually says on the bottle that it can be used directly on open wounds and is perfectly harmless. I have used it on open and surgical wounds on my dogs, as recommended by my vet. There's also one specifically made for self-mutilating birds. Some of them don't recommend applying it directly to open wounds, but some of them say its not a problem, guess it depends which brand you use.

[Dodo]

Thanks, everyone, for further input. If I do choose to use the bitter apple spray, I will be sure to check the label and be certain it's safe for use on her leg; if not, I'll have to try something else.

As to the neem gel, thanks for the heads up! Frodo isn't too keen on having sticky feathers either (I've been trying to put the cream on her leg wound without getting any feathers in the process...although she can get wriggley if held for too long); if I do get some on her healthy feathers, I'll try my best to wipe it off.

Frodo has a number of toys that don't seem to encourage nesting behaviour (although she's always been very much a bottom-dwelling bird, sleeping in one corner of the cage every night since she matured, prefering to play on the ground, floor, or lower perches) such as a safe bell on plastic links (wide enough that she can't get her head, even with collar, stuck in them), a parrot pinata (she shreds it to get the treats, but doesn't seem too nesty with the pieces), and a raw-hide toy with wooden beads; I had to remove everything else (such as preening toys) to discourage the hormonal behaviour, as well as for safety reasons with the collar (I was afraid she might get strings from the cotton rope tangled under the collar). I will try providing her with some twigs and maybe leather strips as well.

The collar is a bubble collar. I will try asking the vet to see what she says, but I think I'm comfortable enough handling Frodo that with assistance in holding her (definitely) I should be able to put it back on. Of course, if she injures herself again and it seems serious (or possibly infected) I will immediately take her back to the vet. I would like to avoid the additional stress on her (whenever possible) of carting her to and from the vet's (it's been 7 times in the past three weeks for collar application and removal and follow ups) as well as, unfortunately, the swiftly mounting vet bills. I love my bird, but I also need to be able to feed her and pay the rent.

I may look into getting a larger cage for her, as well. And probably more toys of the non-hormone-inspiring variety (any suggestions?). I found some good info online about constructing foraging toys, although does anyone know whether all types of paper are safe for birds? I read that toilet paper rolls are unsafe due to zinc content in the glue, and possibly paper towel rolls too...

[CompassionAk]

I just got one of these for my male who plucks a little and he loves it.If your female gets nesty though,this might not be the best for her.http://www.birdkabob.com/ Linda gave me a suggestion for my hen to distract her from getting nesty and that was to make her forage for her food more by placing plastic beads and such in her food dish.I wasn't quick enough to test it and my hen ended up on a clutch of eggs(fake ones now) but maybe that might be something you can try with your girl.

[michael]

.........I may look into getting a larger cage for her, as well. And probably more toys of the non-hormone-inspiring variety (any suggestions?). I found some good info online about constructing foraging toys, although does anyone know whether all types of paper are safe for birds? I read that toilet paper rolls are unsafe due to zinc content in the glue, and possibly paper towel rolls too...

Dodo. After a quick scroll using our search bar option, I located a link to an avian site that offers some shredding toys. In fact, it appears to be a pretty popular site. Check here... http://www.chopperstoys.com/CatalogOddBalls.html Homemade foragers can be quite simple. Certainly a lot cheaper on the budget too! .. Brown paper bags, unwaxed cone cups, plain white typing paper etc, are a great optional material for creating foragers/shredders.

Just to confirm the safety of paper towel/toilet rolls etc. Another search indicated a possible hazard from zinc or lead found in glue thats used to hold the rolls together. Although most companies will dispute their products actually contain enough heavy metal to affect humans, there's little evidence to suggest that level is safe around birds. ... Another hazard is death from either panic or suffocation should one or two small parrots get trapped inside the roll.

The neem gel/cream thats been mentioned, although new in the line of defense, appears to be relatively safe. While i've went so far as to purchase the "neem vanilla cream" and "neem chapstick", i've been reluctant to apply it to either of my lovies. ... B.B. for one, would probably be the best candidate because his activity is limited to a small area of basic feather removal. ... Goof on the other hand, often excedes the epidermis leaving behind small scabs. Probably not a good candidate due to the chance of infection. We'll just have to see after the next vet visit. ..........:)

Almost forgot!...........Does Frodo like to bathe?

[Dodo]

I hadn't heard of the plastic beads idea before- sounds good. I'll have to look for some bird-safe sized beads...The toy suggestions are great, too! The bird ka-bob would probably be ok if I got her the chain variety rather than the nest-carving one...And the ball toys look like something she'd enjoy, although constructing some myself will be easier on the budget, as she is incredibly adept at chewing and destroying...I've been making little paper 'packages' filled with sunflower seeds and millet which she seems to enjoy when I have to leave her to go to work.

Frodo does like to bathe, her favourite method since I got her is to splash about in a shallow saucer, or perch on the edge and 'dip' herself and then flap and shake wildly as if she's surprised to find water. I haven't been letting her saucer bathe with the collar, however because of both the balance issue and the possibility of water seeping under the collar and irritating the skin. She doesn't care for the showers I've been giving her as much as the saucer...I think she'll be relieved when the thing comes off (hopefully at the vet appointment Monday).

[michael]

Well, perhaps once Frodo settles into her new home her condition will eventually start to improve. Could very well have been that just the stress of moving is what pushed her over the edge. .... As for the bubble collars... After awhile they will begin to trap moisture. As a result, I drilled small holes in Goof's to help let it breathe. Got to be careful though not to damage the area's that snap it together. ... While these collars can be quite difficult to apply, it can be done. All I can say, is it takes plenty of "careful determination" not to accidently pinch or injure the skin. And a good helping hand. .... If possible, should you find ahead of time the collar will be coming off for two three days, I would see no problem allowing her to bathe as much as she wants before its removed. And of course, especially afterwards!.. Maybe check with the vet just to be sure on the beforehand suggestion. .... Wishing the very best for Frodo! ... And please, keep us updated...........:)

[ajwilltravel]

Hi everyone.. My boy Squeak (2 yrs) has been mutilating one small patch above his tail feathers for 1 year now. The female Bebe is fine but can be quite aggressive towards him - biting his feet, not letting him eat etc but next minute they are cuddling & mating but her aggressiveness does seem to stress him & I have seen her pull his feathers from his back. I have worked with an avian vet (ran all tests – no physical problems) & bird behaviorist to do all I can to help him – swapped seed for pellets, new massive aviary with 2 sections so i can separate them when I'm at work, various fresh native branches every day, mega shredding & foraging toys plus they are only caged (in aviary) while I'm at work, roam free in house & garden (supervised ofcourse) rest of time. My vet wants to euthanize Squeak but I have refused as he seems so happy even when collared (altho he does struggle to get them off), He is out there chatting away now. He has chewed through 25 tube collars so he is not collared now as he chewed last one off Thurs night but a scab is forming in the same spot so it's back to vet tomorrow for yet another collar. Then I'm switching avian vets (there are only 2 here in Perth, Australia) to get a 2nd opinion & trying a different behaviorist. If I still can't fix it I will trial leaving Bebe somewhere else for 2 weeks to see how he is with her gone. I love her so much as well tho & don't want to let either of them go. The problem may be that they fight over my attention but I do all I can do give them equal attention & train them daily on separate t-stands - tricks & step-ups. I've stopped letting them on my shoulder & cut out cuddles so they know I'm not a bird. Just wondered if anyone has had any luck fixing their mutilators? I'm desperate. I'm afraid the neem cream didn't work for me at all - it made him pick more. Does anyone think allowing them to fly (I have always clipped them) might stop him? Thanks everyone...

[ajwilltravel]

If worse comes to worse and I do have to re-home Bebe to stop Squeak picking do you think a budgie in the other half section of the aviary would keep Squeak company while i'm at work? Are budgie's intelligent? Note Squeak is a very mellow, sweet, gentle bird. Bebe would rip it's head off. Thanks..

[linda040899]

Sounds like you've pulled out all the stops with Squeak, that's for sure! Separating them and another opinion from a different avian vet are both good, viable choices and you may find something that works with either one. I don't think euthanizing Squeak is the answer. I would not even consider it at this point.

Let me see if I can find anything else holistic for plucking/mutilating. It took a while for the Neem Cream to work with my bird and at least you gave it a shot. I can fully understand why Squeak chewed up the e-collars. All they do is prevent the mutilation. They are not a cure and the fact that Squeak continues to chew them up lets you know how badly that area bothers him.

Is there any time of the year when the picking seems to lessen? I'm wondering if too many male hormones in his system could be causing the problem.

[ajwilltravel]

Hi Linda.. yes I've been thinking the same thing. He didn't pick for one week recently and then I actually saw him start doing it one morning when he was all excited running around Bebe clearly trying to mate with her but she wasn't interested. If this is the cause taking her away wouldn't help would it? Although I found a really nice place today - a lovely girl with weiros and a cocky who she looks after very well - she said she would babysit Bebe for 2 weeks while I see how Squeak goes and if she ends up having to stay she will get Bebe a male. Another nice man said I can borrow one of his lovebirds to see how Squeak is with that bird and if it works out I could keep it. If he continues to pick I can return that bird and get Bebe back. I suppoze if it's hormonal I'd have to borrow a female bird. I'll run this past the vet and see what he thinks. It's worth a try I suppoze. I will be devastated to lose Bebe tho :( See how I go with the vet.. thank you for your support re my decision not to put him down - everyone else agrees - I've been so upset about even the thought of it. I'll let you know how it goes.. thanks again :)

[ajwilltravel]

Does anyone know if it's normal for the female to be fairly constantly aggressive towards the male? Would this cause a male lovebird stress, even when she is nice to him sometimes? He does always seem to be on edge with her but are all female lovies bossy? Has anyone else had this situation with a male/female and did the male mutilate? Thanks everyone...

[linda040899]

Does anyone know if it's normal for the female to be fairly constantly aggressive towards the male? Would this cause a male lovebird stress, even when she is nice to him sometimes? He does always seem to be on edge with her but are all female lovies bossy? Has anyone else had this situation with a male/female and did the male mutilate? Thanks everyone...
To answer your first question, no, it's not "normal." An occasional squabble is bound to happen but it should not be constant. Could this cause the male stress to where he would pick/self-mutilate? If he's a captive audience in the same cage with her and has nowhere to go to escape the constant aggression, I can see this as a possible cause. That's why I asked if there is any time at all when he isn't picking.

How the male reacts to the female aggression is going to vary from bird to bird. I've got one male who is "hen pecked," so to speak, and he handles it very well. If she starts with him, he simply gives it right back and that quiets things down.

I think it's worth a shot to try a trial separation and see what happens. He may not miss her at all, as the stress will be gone. Perhaps consider getting him an older male companion. Males are generally very happy campers together. I have a number of males in this kind of situation and there's no agression at all. If you want to keep Bebe, perhaps split them up, give her a different mate and get a male companion for Squeak.

I think it's going to come down to trial and error to see what works in this situation.

[shadnamber]

Zidi is pretty aggressive towards Chupa. She for a while would not let him sleep in the nest box and she still chases him away from the food bowls. They even got into some beak bleeding battles a while back. I give him a lot of out of cage time. Zidi is busy with her babies right now and this has calmed things down a lot at my house. I am hoping after babies that hormones can faze out and all will be good. I have come to the conclusion that birds are very hormone driven and you can't take it personal. Hope this helps.

[Julinka]

My lovebird Skipper had no self mutilation problems until her good parakeet buddy started showing signs of illness. (They lived in separate cages but would fly together when I let them out, preen each other, etc.) She began to over preen. After he died, she got more aggressive and started picking at her feathers. I eventually got another male parakeet and they bonded, but her feather problem continued. Then one day I found blood on one of her perches and saw she had broken the skin on one of her legs. Off to the vet we went. Nothing was physically wrong. The vet suggested a bigger cage and put a collar on her. However, shortly after I got Skipper home, I noticed foam coming out of her beak. The collar was too tight and I had to take it off. The bird was in shock and didn't move at all for at least a half hour. I decided collars were not an option. I got the bigger cage, more things for her to shred but nothing was working. In desperation I called a pet supply store and told them what was going on. They recommended Ecotrition Skin and Plumage liquid supplement. I didn't have much hope it would work but had nothing to lose. Surprise, it worked! She continued to pluck the feathers on her leg whenever they would grow back but stopped damaging her skin. A few years later, i decided to try cutting down on the supplement and started giving it to her every other day. She began damaging her skin again. Obviously she needed something in it. So I gave it to her every day for the rest of her life.