Looks like I was right - Dolce is a female

[Carole]

I woke up today and there is an egg on the bottom of the cage. No nest, just an egg lying there. So I'm guessing that I was right about Dolce being a female. She has been shredding paper a lot recently and tucking the paper into her wings. But she hasn't done anything with it.

The question is - how long do I leave the egg in there before pulling it. They can't mate as they are siblings. Adagio's behavior has not been anything like Dolce's. If he is in fact a he, he has no interest in shredding paper. He just sits and watches Dolce.

So what do I do?

Carole

[Carole]

PS
Dolce is showing absolutely no interest in the egg at all. When I opened the door for them to come out and play, she was out before Adagio. And now they are back in, and playing on the perch. She never even went over to the egg when she went back in her cage.

Carole

[linda040899]

Dolce's reaction to the egg is not abnormal. While she is ignoring the egg at the moment, let her lay 2 more and you should see that change. Her body is not at incubating temperature do sitting on the egg would not do anything anyway.

Leave the egg where it's at and let's see what happens.

[Carole]

OK, thanks, Linda. I knew you would know what I should do.

Do you think she will lay more eggs?

Is there a way to know if they are fertile?

Should I give her nesting materials, or just leave things as they are? All of her shredded papers have ended up falling through the grate into the tray below. There are a few shredder toys in their cage, plus their food and water dishes, but that's all.

Carole

[linda040899]

Dolce could lay anywhere from 4-8 eggs. You will see them every other day until the clutch is complete. It takes about 7-10 days before you can tell if an egg is fertile and the first one isn't always.

If you want babies should any of these eggs be fertile, I would give them a nest box now. Attach it to the outside of the cage so you have easy access to it. Once you hang the nest, fill it with aspen shavings until the bedding is about 1/2" below the entrance hole and then put the egg inside. If she lays her next egg on the bottom, put that one in the nest with egg #1. Trust me, Dolce will follow her eggs, even if it's not immediately. Once she begins sitting on her eggs in earnest (stays in the box), wait about 6 days and candle the eggs. If the clutch turns out to be infertile, let her incubate her clutch so she completes her cycle. 25 days after the last egg was laid, remove eggs, box and all.

Since you have a known hen, I would DNA sex Adagio to make sure he's a he and not a she.

[Carole]

I was told they shouldn't have babies since they are siblings. I certainly wouldn't want to bring deformed little ones into the world. I saw a number of deformed cockatiels at the bird refuge. They didn't live very long and didn't have good lives, so if Adagio is male and the eggs are fertile, I think I'd rather pull them and not have them hatch.

Carole

[linda040899]

OK. That changes the game plan. No nest box. Instead, give Dolce a small cardboard box just to make her more comfortable. You can even use a Kleenex box. She will probably shred it, but that's OK.

Take the egg she just laid and hard boil it for 2 minutes. Let it cool and return it to the cage. Nothing has begun to develop and this will prevent anything from developing. Right now, the egg is blank, as Dolce has not begun incubating. Even if she had, you can pull the egg within 24 hrs and hard boil it without killing anything.

Breeders who are looking for something specific have been known to breed brother to sister but it should only be done under special circumstances. I have a brother/sister pair that just gave me a WF Creamino Opaline baby and that's what I was looking for. The parents of my pair are completely unrelated so one generation down worked well. All babies will be paired with unrelated mates. Brother/sister pairs should only be used if you need a specific mutation and you know the genetics of the pair will give you what you want. Further inbreeding will lead to smaller, weak babies which is not acceptable.

[Carole]

Yes, both she and Adagio love to shred cardboard :)

They are both nighty night now. Should I disturb them to get the egg or just do it tomorrow? And if she lays more, I'll do the same. Since I adopted them from the bird store when the store owner died as no one wanted them, I have no idea who the parents are. I am guessing that's why people told me not to let them have babies.

What will happen when they don't hatch? Will Dolce be upset?

Carole

[linda040899]

Hard boiling the egg tomorrow will be fine. Eggs remain infertile until the hen begins incubating/sitting on them and then it takes several days to see red veining when you candle them.

Dolce will accept the fact that nothing hatched and her life will go on. She may be unhappy for a short while but she will be fine after that. Quite honestly, you still don't know for sure that Adagio is a male. You could have a hen that is assuming the role of a male. I've seen it happen and I've had it happen in my own aviary.

Are either of these 2 banded?

[Carole]

No, they are not banded. All I know about their "heritage" is that a guy was breeding his lovebirds and ended up with these two who were, for lack of a better word, left over. He was moving so he gave them to the lady at the bird store to sell. When she passed away, homes had to be found for all the birds and most found nice homes or went to other bird refuges that specialized in their species. Towards the end, there were only a few birds left. Many were quite ill and had to be euthanized, others would be sent to the local bird refuge. These little ones didn't belong in a refuge, they just needed a home, so I adopted them.

OK, this may be a stupid question, but I know very little about bird biology. I always thought that a hen had to mate to produce eggs. From what you said Linda, I'm guessing that is not the case? Do hens produce eggs on their own, and do they only hatch into little ones if they have mated? Otherwise, the egg is just empty? And how often do they go through their cycle?

Thanks,
Carole

[linda040899]

Hi Carole,
These two lovebirds are very lucky to have gotten out of their situation and come to live with you! Kudos to you for caring so much about them!

There are no stupid questions here, just those looking for information. :) The female does not need a male lovebird in order to lay eggs. The "mate" can be another female lovebird or that "mate" can be a human. Fertile or not, she will be very protective about her eggs, as they are HERS and she would give her very life to keep them safe. Be prepared to have to deal with a feathered land shark in the next few days. The eggs would hatch if she had a male mate and they mated regularly until the last egg of the clutch is laid.

Once a clutch is abandoned, many hens will turn right around and lay again. When you take away her "nest," clean out the cage, re-arrange everything and move it to a new location. If you could move them to a completely different cage, that would be even better. It will take Dolce a bit to get used to the changes and feel comfortable and you may find yourself doing the same thing all over again. There is nothing quite as determined as a nestie lovie hen!!!!!

[Carole]

Thanks :) I just couldn't see two adorable little birds like them having to live at the bird refuge where they wouldn't get love. Yes, they'd have a place to live and they'd get fed, but I rescued Dundee (my cockatiel) from the refuge, and I just couldn't let them send Adagio and Dolce there. I'm lucky too, as they have given me so much. After my car accident, I was so depressed that I actually thought about ending my life. If it hadn't been for Dundee, Adagio, and Dolce, I doubt I'd be here now. Dundee became so much more affectionate, and the little lovies kept doing things to make me laugh. They can be such clowns when they want to be :) And they wanted Mommy to stop crying and start laughing, so they were doing all kinds of acrobatics, and climbing all over me to tickle me and make me laugh.

I thought hens were protective which is why I was so surprised today when I opened their door for them to come out and play, and she was out before Adagio. I didn't think she'd leave her egg. But she's not the least bit interested in it. Maybe once there are a few more, she will change. We'll see :)

Thanks so much for all your help :)

Carole

[Carole]

Well, I now have two little eggs. Actually I was surprised at how large they are, as the lovebirds are so much small than Dundee. Dolce is still showing no interest in them. One is in one corner and the other is in the back of the cage.

Carole

[Carole]

Hey Linda,

When I went to boil the new egg, it cracked. So I threw it away. Was that the right thing to do? I thought if I put it back in the cage, it would start to smell after a couple of days.

Carole

[Fischer'sLB13]

hi Linda,

Congrats on the lovies great news. A few things for you As you get the eggs and boil them mark them with dots so you don't keep boiling the same eggs ;-)

As for the broken one she should just keep doing her thing as in the wild, to her the eggs she still has will mean more to her, she might check around as if counting but should carry on laying. i incubate duck and chickens eggs and the female will only sit and incubate her eggs once she has all her clutch in the nest at the same moment not before as she needs them to all hatch around the same time so she can look after them at the same time, if it takes up to 10 days to lay all her eggs she would have had to incubate the unhatched eggs as well as feed and care for the hatchlings, ( now that would be to places at the same time :-) )

Cheers

[Carole]

Gee, and I thought twins were a handful when my friend had a set ;) I can't even imagine a Mama bird trying to feed 10 at once, LOL!

She still has no interest in the egg. It's just sitting there.

Carole

[linda040899]

Her body is not at incubating temperature yet. Give her another egg or so and see if the interest level changes. You were right to throw away the cracked egg. Sometimes that happens.

[Chickobee]

Did you put her egg in a small box with some nesting material? She may continue laying more and more until she has what she considers a full clutch.

Lovebirds are not like chickens and ducks who warm their eggs up once a day when they lay their egg until they have the entire clutch. Then they incubate all of them.

A lovebird will begin incubating her eggs after the second or even third egg. Then they will hatch out on different days. I've quite often had the first two eggs hatch on the same day or within several hours of each other. Then the others are approximately every two days.

I read somewhere in the internet about someone who keeps all of the lovebird eggs, replacing each new one with a fake egg, until the entire clutch is laid. Then she gives all of the real eggs back to the hen to incubate. This causes the eggs to all hatch close together similar to a chicken. Since this isn't natural for a lovebird I wouldn't advocate doing it this way. I don't recall what the success rate was either.

I'd rather not mess with nature and let the birds do things their own way.

We tried using fake eggs for two hens who had already double clutched and were going for a third round. One hen knew the difference and buried the fake eggs (even warmed up). Then I boiled her real eggs and she sat on them for a little over three weeks before abandoning them. The other hen was happy with her fake eggs.

[Carole]

I put a small box with some shredded paper in it and the egg on top. But she has no interest. She just plays with Adagio, and when I put their millet in their cage, she was back inside in a flash and gobbling it down :)

If things are on track, she should lay another one tomorrow. So we shall see what she does.

Carole

[Carole]

Well, Dolce laid an egg every other day for a total of 3. I boiled them all, one cracked, and I put the other two in a tissue box with shredded paper. I expected another egg this morning when I got up, but there wasn't one. Does that mean she's done? She still has no interest in the nesting box or the two eggs in it. In fact, she shredded more paper and covered the eggs. So do I just wait now and see what happens. She's out of her cage now playing with Adagio.

Carole

[Carole]

Update: Dolce is still shredding paper, but she hasn't laid anymore eggs. Should I be concerned? She also has no interest in the ones in the nesting box.

Carole

[linda040899]

Is there a visible lump under her tail feathering just above her vent? I've had clutches of just one egg, although it's unusual unless the hen is older.

[Carole]

We have another egg today. I bought them a little house and she laid in the egg in the house. Should I put the other two with it? They are both out playing on their playgym now, so I can take one of the boiled ones and put it in the house and take that one out.

Carole

[Carole]

Well, I think Dolce has finished laying her eggs. We ended up with 6, but one cracked so I threw it away. We now have 5, all have been hard boiled. You were right, Linda, she is now very protective about her nest. Adagio has also gotten more aggressive and has tried to bite my hand when I go to get their food and water dishes out to clean them and fill them. I can still coax them out with millet once in a while, and then while she and Adagio are eating that, I quickly grab the dishes, wash and fill them, and get them back in the cage. I feel like I'm having a chinese fire drill, LOL!!!

Carole

[linda040899]

Carole,
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Never underestimate the temperament of a nesty lovie hen!!! She will now protect those eggs with her very life until she's ready to give them up!!!

[Carole]

I just wish she and Adagio would realize that I'm only trying to feed them and give them clean water. Good thing millet still works its magic :rotfl

Carole

[linda040899]

No deal on that!!!!!!!
To them, your hands are intruders and a threat to the eggs. Give them a little bit of time and they MAY see that all you want to do is feed them and you intend to leave the eggs alone. Operative word here is may. :whistle:

[Carole]

Yea, in the meantime, it's the attack of the lovebirds, LOL!! Yesterday I put their millet on top of their cage and they both came out to get it. I had to grab the dishes like a speed demon to fill them and get them back inside before they finished their millet! They are just too funny!

Carole

[Carole]

Well, the latest is that Dolce has pushed one of the eggs out of her nesting area. I put it back in, but when I got home, she had moved it out again, so I guess she's done with that one :) She's still sitting on the other one, so I guess I'll give her some more time and see what she does. She is starting to come out of the cage again to play on top, but then she goes back inside after a minute or so. Adagio is at this moment on the top of Mommy's curtains rather proud of himself. Now I have to go get him down, LOL!

Carole

[Daiqattack10]

It's like with chickens, the eggs we eat from them are NOT fertilized. Hens don't need to mate to lay eggs, but in order to have a baby develop a male needs to be present to fertilize the egg. Otherwise, birds would be asexual producers and their babies would be a clone of the parent as no new DNA would be added.
Certain things trigger egg laying in birds,and removing things like shreddable toys or nest boxes (if present) can help, but Linda would be better able at explaining in depth than I.

[Carole]

I got one of those kits so I can have Adagio DNA sexed. I'm pretty sure he's a male, but I've been told that often when two hens are close, one can take on the role of the male. So if that's the case, I won't have to worry about the eggs. This time I hard boiled each of them just after she laid them. I can't let them reproduce as they are siblings. So they are either sister and sister, or sister and brother.

The one good thing about all of this is that Adagio has molted a bit more and his forehead is now a deeper peach, so at least I can now tell them apart :)

Carole