About Parental Aggression roseicollis

[hyvnc]

Hı everyone,

I'm a breeder from Türkey. I have a pair of love birds, male is opaline and the female is lutino. They were juvenile when I got them and they become adult birds, they prepared their nest, mated and produced their first eggs almost completely normal.

In the first time they produced four eggs and none of them hatch. When I examined the eggs I noticed 2 of them were full. In the second time they made 5 eggs, all of them was full and 3 of them have hatched. The first one has died as soon as hatched. The second and the third was killed by the parents.

When the chick hatch the parets do not feed them and start to nibble or eat from their fingers then top of their wings, then the chick dies. I saw the same before in budgerigars and canaries.

I hope to hear something good. I trust your breeding experiences and I want to get the offsprings of this pair(lutino opalines)..... I don't have time for hand feeding...

Best regards
Oz

[linda040899]

Hi Oz and welcome to Lovebirds Plus Community! It's nice to have you here with us. :)

You stated that this pair was juvenile when you got them. How old were they when you allowed them to have their first clutch? Lovebirds, both male and female, should be at least 12 months old when you set them up for breeding. 18 months of age is even better. Younger pairs tend not to make good parents, although that's not true in all cases.

Some breeders do what I call "colony breed" their birds. They keep them in large flights and just have many nest boxes (more boxes than breeding pairs) in the flight cage. Other breeders, including myself, pair breed....one pair of lovebirds per cage. Which are you doing?

Cage location can have an affect on what goes on with the babies. Parents need to feel safe and comfortable with the location they have available to raise their young. When I hang my nest boxes, the entrance hole faces away from the entrance to the breeding area. My breeding cages are also right up against one another. Should the parents feel uncomfortable or believe that their babies are in danger (whether they really are or not), they will kill them before they allow anything to hurt the little ones.

I've had pairs that produce beautiful babies but just are not parent material. If I want those babies badly enough, I foster fertile eggs from the pair to other pairs who are known good parents. Because I don't like more than 4 babies/nest, I may not foster all eggs to the same set of foster parents. Sometimes if I have a pair that, for whatever reason, don't produce their own fertile eggs, I use them for foster parents and it works out very well.

Tell me a little bit more about your breeding set up and I may be able to share more information with you. You should get Opaline babies from this pairing, but all will be females because your hen is not a visual Opaline.

[hyvnc]

Hi,

So special thanks for the explanations. But now I am writing some more advanced and detailed ones about my roseicollis pair and I also have some more questions. Firstly the explanation of the conditions:

- Firstly the cage of my birds is a bit small. Because I didn't put the pair in this cage to breed them. They were juvenile when I put them in this cage and the only aim was just to wait them to be an adult in this cage. But this happened in a shorter time than I think. When they produce the eggs, I didn't move them. The cage is a typical budgie cage and 3/2 times bigger than a canary cage

- The nest box is not small and it seems to be a normal nest

- Nesting material is the shell of the sunflower seeds. I wasn't planning to breed them in this time. They made the seed shells as thin fibers themselves and used them as a nesting material. When I see that I put some coco fibers but they didn't use

- The nest hole is normal and it doesn't seem bigger or smaller than they need

- The cage is vertical and the nest box is fixed on the top of the cage

- Normally the cage of the birds was in a small room and at the same time there are also two pairs of budgies in that room. İn that bird room, the cages are on a table. But because of our guests sleeping in that bird room, we carried the cage of the lovebirds to our bedroom. In this time they suddenly made their first eggs in the bedroom. For this reason I didn't carry them back to the bird room.

- The light was open for more than 15 hours in the bedroom because we were studying about our lectures and exams

- The Cage was on the ground in the bedroom

- The nutrition is about the only seed mixtures and fruits. Because I don't want them to be fat. I am using a rich mixture of the seeds. İn the last days I was giving boiled green pea, carrot and potatoes. I gave boiled egg only a few times. They have calcium in all times, but not in the last days the chicks hatched

- The last explanation is a question at the same time. The killed chicks were cold and away from female in the box. Is this a case of the aggression of the male one? When they finish the eggs is it possible to separate the male away? Can female be successful feeding youngs alone?

- One more question: Can budgerigars be successful to feed the lovebird chicks?

- The last question: Is it possible to use living meal worms as a protein source? Because it works in cardueline finches for the parental aggression

Now I'm planning to use a big cage for the pair. I have a cage which is nearly 0,5m square volume and I'll decorate inside the cage with acacia branches. I'll feed them in the birdroom and with 12 hours of light a day. A bigger nest. Quite and non-disturbed conditions, and a diet with more protein. But I can not be sure to solve this problem.

These are my detailed informations and explanations. So special thanks for your comments and experiences

All the best for your birds
Ozgun

[linda040899]

Hi,


- Firstly the cage of my birds is a bit small. Because I didn't put the pair in this cage to breed them. They were juvenile when I put them in this cage and the only aim was just to wait them to be an adult in this cage. But this happened in a shorter time than I think. When they produce the eggs, I didn't move them. The cage is a typical budgie cage and 3/2 times bigger than a canary cage
It's actually not hard to move a nest box from a smaller cage to a larger one. I've done it several times and it usually works. Set up the larger cage and wait until night time. With both of the pair inside the box, put a paper towel in the entrance hole so both birds remain inside the box. Take the box off the small cage and hang it on the outside of the larger one. Leave the lights off and remove the paper towel from the entrance. When the sun comes up in the morning, the cage will be different but since they were in the box, they generally don't abandon it. I've done this with several different species, including Abyssinians, and the results have been good. No tragedies.



- Nesting material is the shell of the sunflower seeds. I wasn't planning to breed them in this time. They made the seed shells as thin fibers themselves and used them as a nesting material. When I see that I put some coco fibers but they didn't use
Peachfaced Lovebirds are not great nest builders. I usually put Aspen shavings in the nest so that the box is filled about halfway up to the entrance hole. Mom will usually re-arrange it to suit her taste and add more material of her choice to it. Once she's selected what she wants, it just about takes an act of God to change her mind! The biggest thing is to have enough bedding in the box so the babies can keep their feet underneath them or you can have splay leg chicks.


- The nest hole is normal and it doesn't seem bigger or smaller than they need

- The cage is vertical and the nest box is fixed on the top of the cage
This is good. Make sure the entrance hole faces away from the entrance to the room.



- The light was open for more than 15 hours in the bedroom because we were studying about our lectures and exams
Too much light! I follow sunrise/sunset lighting, which is what birds are normally used to.


- The Cage was on the ground in the bedroom
Bad! I've never had breeding pairs do well on bottom rows of even stacked cages. In my aviary, I have 3 rows of cages and don't use the bottom row.


- The nutrition is about the only seed mixtures and fruits. Because I don't want them to be fat. I am using a rich mixture of the seeds. İn the last days I was giving boiled green pea, carrot and potatoes. I gave boiled egg only a few times. They have calcium in all times, but not in the last days the chicks hatched
Because lovebirds are native to Africa, they have a higher fat requirement than birds from other places around the globe. They need sunflower seed and I make sure my seed mixture contains them. In addition to calcium rich food, you need a source for Vit D. You can give them all the calcium you want but birds can't use it without Vit D. In outside aviaries, the UV rays from the sun turn the oil spread on the feathers to Vit D and the birds get the benefit of it when they preen their feathers. Hard boiled egg, eggfood and some pellets (I use very, very few pellets) are good sources for this.


- The last explanation is a question at the same time. The killed chicks were cold and away from female in the box. Is this a case of the aggression of the male one? When they finish the eggs is it possible to separate the male away? Can female be successful feeding youngs alone?
Mom, dad or both could be responsible for the deaths of the chicks. If dad doesn't feed mom and mom doesn't to and get food for the chicks, the babies will die from starvation within 18-24 hrs. You can try removing the male and see what happens. Yes, the hen can successfully raise the chicks by herself (That's what she would do if anything happened to dad.), as long as the clutch isn't too big. I, personally, don't like to see more than 4 babies in a nest, as it's hard on the parents, as well as the babies. With more than 4, I look for fosters first. If not, I'm prepared to hand feed if necessary.


- One more question: Can budgerigars be successful to feed the lovebird chicks?
Yes, budgerigars can, in theory, raise baby lovebirds. However, here are a few cautions. Lovebirds have larger, stronger beaks, which are capable of damaging the beaks of the budgie foster parents. If you foster lovebird babies to budgie parents, no more than 2 lovebirds/pair of budgie fosters. The foster parents also can't have any babies in their nest. Budgie babies can't compete with the larger lovebird babies. The budgie babies will lose every time. Baby budgies and baby lovebirds are both fed on their backs, initially, so if you stay within the restrictions I mentioned, it could work.


- The last question: Is it possible to use living meal worms as a protein source? Because it works in cardueline finches for the parental aggression
Meal worms are a good protein source for all birds but I don't feed them live to my lovebirds. I take what I need, put them in the toe of a nylon stocking and dunk them in boiling water first to kill them.


Now I'm planning to use a big cage for the pair. I have a cage which is nearly 0,5m square volume and I'll decorate inside the cage with acacia branches. I'll feed them in the birdroom and with 12 hours of light a day. A bigger nest. Quite and non-disturbed conditions, and a diet with more protein. But I can not be sure to solve this problem.

These are my detailed informations and explanations. So special thanks for your comments and experiences

All the best for your birds
Ozgun
Hope my commehts are helpful.

[personatus]

I think the hours of light the birds need will depend on where you are located and the time of year. We get less than 8 hours of daylight here at the moment, sunrise is around 8.40am and sunsets around 4.30pm. Not ideal trying to breed birds with less than 8 hours of light per day. I had a quick look and it seems Turkey are getting about 9 hours per day o0n average.

I do agree though that 15 hours is too much. Most breeders I know of use about 13 hours of light per day, some maybe give 14 hours.

The birds pituary gland will produce hormones when they are exposed to over 12 hours of daylight per day. The males start getting all hormonal, the sex drive increases on the females and the rest is history I guess. Consitancy is quite important with lighting. No good having 8 hours of light one day, then 12 the next etc. That will mess the birds up. If you plan to breed over the summer you can rely on natural daylight hours, but not so in the winter. My birds are now inside and it's winter so I use a timer with an automatic dimmer that replicates sunset and sunrise. When preparing the birds for breeding season I increase the light by about 3-5 mins per day until they have 13.5 hours of light per day. During that period I also increase the foods to a higher protein content. That replicates spring and usually gets them in the mood.

If you have full eggs but they never hatched, that sounds like dead in shell (DIS). If they are dying shortly after hatching, they are either too weak to survive and the mutilation is the parents trying to get a response from them, or it's a bad parent killing the young. Based on the the fact that is sounds like you have had DIS eggs, I would learn more towards the chicks are weak and unable to survive. Poor nutrition, lack of condition and under-age birds are a few common causes.

I agree to keep the birds off the floor, never a good thing.

I would rest the birds for minimum of 6 months now, let them moult then prepare them to breed again.

[hyvnc]

Thank you very much, all the explanations are important for me

[hyvnc]

Is it possible to give dried shrimp as a protein source