Avian vet told me a strange taming technique (+ unrelated question)

[BlueBull]

Hi everyone

I'm new here. Thank you for letting me join. This post has turned out longer than I had expected, sorry, I tend to over-explain :)

I want to preface this by saying that I will not be using this taming technique, I'm just wondering if anyone has ever heard of this before

I have been keeping budgerigars from a very young age so I am a bit experienced with at least that species. I have always used "traditional" taming techniques, like finding out their comfort distance and veeery slowly decreasing that distance until they are comfortable with being close to me, then introducing a hand, using treats to reward calmness, etc etc

That said, we (my girlfriend and me) decided to go with a bit bigger of a bird since my previous budgie died very unexpected a few months ago, which I still have a hard time with. Though he was very familiar with the windows and it never happened before I suspect he flew into one :cry: We have indoor windows but we have now put stickers all over them to avoid that happening again. So, we went and got a lovebird a few days ago. He or she is still young, should be 9-10 weeks now. I will be using the methods described before, however today I went to the avian vet (not just a vet that also handles birds, a true avian vet) to have the bird checked over (everything okay) and the vet told me he has been keeping lovebirds all his life and he tames them using a very peculiar method and he tells me this works in about a single week to completely tame them. It's simple: he catches them and hold them in his hands, puts them against his bare stomach while watching TV and after a while they would relax and fall asleep. After 1 or 2 days and the more relaxed the bird is, the looser he would keep his hands and after a while, at most a day or 4, they just sit in his hands and fear of his hands is gone and the bird is as tame as can be. Again, I'm not going to use this technique but I'm wondering if this would work at all? I would think that would make them extremely fearful of your hands in stead of tame? I told him this but he says it never fails and all his birds over the years have loved him to bits after taming them like this, he was really adamant about this

Thoughts?

Unrelated question: what are your thoughts about clipping the birds wings, during bonding only? I have never done this but on the other hand, I hand-fed all my previous birds from about 4 weeks old so they bonded with me from the start. This bird is extremely fearful (which is of course normal), 9-10 weeks old and not hand-fed and I'm wondering if I should clip its wings a bit to facilitate forming a bond with it. I'm afraid that I won't be able to bond with it and comfort it properly because I have almost no experience starting the bonding process with a fearful bird, I'm scared to make mistakes and break trust. And also, I don't want my little friend to get hurt if he flees when afraid, though we have tried to make sure there are no windows (drapes closed + stickers as explained before) or dangerous objects he can fly into

Thank you!

Tom

[linda040899]

Hello, Tom, and welcome to Lovebirds Plus Community! Congratulations on your new baby lovebird and we are happy to have you here with us!

The technique your avian vet described is called desensitization, and while it will tame the bird, you will not get the trust relationship you truly want. Basically, you force the bird to tolerate something that it doesn't want but has no way to escape. The Womax Brothers are well known for pushing this technique, and I adamantly disagree with it!

This baby has 2 things to deal with. It's away from everything familiar and in a place where it doesn't know that you don't intend to make it your next meal. Remember, birds are prey animals, although there are predator birds (not little parrots). Parrots have to learn trust through experience and experience takes time. How much time is different with each bird. You and I are in agreement about method of taming/earning trust.

I have a combination of small birds (I'm a retired lovebird breeder) and, while I'm not pro wing clipping, I have a few whose flights are clipped strictly for safety purposes. When I clip, I only clip the outside 3-4 flights on each wing so the bird can still fly, just not gain altitude. A conure landing on my macaw's cage would not end well, so both of my conures, have mini clips. Initially, you may want to clip flights until your lovebird learns the layout of its new home. You can try stick training for it to step up onto should it land on the floor. A stick is simply a different perch and will be viewed as safer than your hand. Many parrots simply don't trust or like human hands and we have to respect that.

I don't mind reading a "book." The more information you offer, the better I can understand what's going on. I'm also sorry for the loss of your budgie. :( A lot of my lovebird flock are much older (15+) and it's hard when you lose them to old age and know there's nothing you can do.

[BlueBull]

Hello Linda

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such an extensive reply, I really appreciate it!

I didn't expect that it would actually work to tame a bird, that kind of surprises me. As you rightly said though, that is absolutely not the bond I want to have with my bird. My previous birds all loved me, at least they all kissed me constantly, completely trusted me and at times even regurgitated food to me which is a sign of affection among many birds as you know. That is the kind of bond I want with this bird as well, I would rather have him wild and unforced than tame and forced into it. That said I think (actually, I'm sure) I just need to have a lot more patience than with my previous birds and it will turn out alright. Today I succeeded in having him not go crazy when I approached the cage with some millet and he actually came up to the perch I was holding the millet at from outside the cage. He didn't eat from it but that is already progress and this is the first time I tried any kind of real interaction with this bird. I'm going to hold off on really starting to tame it for a few more days so it can settle in more but I wanted to see how he would react to millet and my hand

About the clipping, I'm still not sure what I should do but I think I'm going to wait and see how he responds to real interaction before I decide. We have bird-proofed our apartment as much as we can and I believe we can keep him safe even without a wing clip. That said if I see he is at risk from harming himself I might go ahead with it but I will have the vet do it I think. I will also certainly look into stick training, that's new to me

It was hard to lose my previous bird indeed, certainly because he appeared to be in good health still. I loved that little guy. I take a bit of comfort in knowing he got to be 13 years, almost 14 years old, which is already respectable for a budgie in captivity

Thanks again and take care

Tom

[linda040899]

Sounds like your new lovie is curious about you already! This is a very good sign and you simply have to take things at his pace. Pretty basically, he is not bonding to you. He is accepting you into his flock. :)

I will not trust most pet shops or vet's offices to clip my bird's flight feathers. Most have their own agenda as how it needs to be done and you can find yourself with a parrot that only has the flights on one wing clipped or all feathers have been clipped from flights to glides!!! I do my own wing clipping so that I can control how much flight ability I want the bird to have to navigate safely around the environment. I usually start with 3 and go one more on each wing, if necessary. None of mine have ever held a grudge because of what I've done. It's OK because I didn't hurt them.

Almost 14yrs is amazing for a budgie! Very few make it to 10 and most of those are wild color (green). Anything with feathers captures my heart very easily, including my backyard chickens!

Hope this is helpful and please keep me updated on how things are going with your lovebird!

[BlueBull]

Pretty basically, he is not bonding to you. He is accepting you into his flock
That is a very interesting way of looking at it, I agree from my experience with previous birds

I will not trust most pet shops or vet's offices to clip my bird's flight feathers. Most have their own agenda as how it needs to be done and you can find yourself with a parrot that only has the flights on one wing clipped or all feathers have been clipped from flights to glides!!! I do my own wing clipping so that I can control how much flight ability I want the bird to have to navigate safely around the environment. I usually start with 3 and go one more on each wing, if necessary. None of mine have ever held a grudge because of what I've done. It's OK because I didn't hurt them.
That is funny you should say that, the vet told me that if I were to get his wings clipped, it would only be 1 wing because that is the way it should be done. He said that if you do both that they can fly just as well as without a clip. When I heard this I was already thinking "that is strange, every single piece of information I read about clipping says to clip both wings". I'm starting to get some serious doubts about this "avian vet"

Almost 14yrs is amazing for a budgie! Very few make it to 10 and most of those are wild color (green). Anything with feathers captures my heart very easily, including my backyard chickens!
Indeed, the little guy just kept going. He was even in (apparently) really good health when he died. I heard a thump about 5 minutes before we found him dead but didn't see anything out of the ordinary, so that's why I think he flew into a window and succumbed to the impact

Hope this is helpful and please keep me updated on how things are going with your lovebird!
This entire conversation has been amazingly helpful! Thank you for that. I will certainly keep you posted on progress. I already have an update: yesterday, after hesitating for about 20-25 minutes he slowly came over and with outstretched neck he took a few nibbles of the spray millet I was holding against the cage bars! Today, he only hesitated for 5 minutes before scooting over and didn't stretch out his neck to eat from it, he sat right up to the cage bars at about 15cm from my hand! So, great progress in a pretty short time. I can't wait to bond with him (or better, for him to accept me into his flock) so I can let him out of his cage, I pity him for not being able to fly freely. Or do you let your birds out before they are tame? I'm kind of reluctant to do that although our apartment should be safe, as I have no way of handling him and getting him back in his cage afterwards, and I really don't want to chase and catch him unless I absolutely have to, that would destroy any built-up trust

Cheers

Tom

[linda040899]

You are making wonderful progress by letting him come to you, which he is doing! He sees that you won't hurt him when he gets closer so he's beginning to trust you! Great!!

Clipping the flight feathers on only 1 wing throws off their balance even when they are not flying! You want to limit flight, not eliminate it. With 3-5 primaries cut on each wing, he will still be able to fly, just not gain altitude or speed that he would have with full flights.

I would work on teaching him to step up onto a perch before you let him out of his cage. I have a few that are not tame, but they return to their cage on command or step up so I can take them back.

[BlueBull]

You are making wonderful progress by letting him come to you, which he is doing! He sees that you won't hurt him when he gets closer so he's beginning to trust you! Great!!

Clipping the flight feathers on only 1 wing throws off their balance even when they are not flying! You want to limit flight, not eliminate it. With 3-5 primaries cut on each wing, he will still be able to fly, just not gain altitude or speed that he would have with full flights.

I would work on teaching him to step up onto a perch before you let him out of his cage. I have a few that are not tame, but they return to their cage on command or step up so I can take them back.
Yep, I'm making progress every day, it's going great. He just ate some millet without stem from between my fingers through the cage bars, so with my fingers pressed against the cage. He also came over right away, doesn't hesitate anymore. I'm going to keep this up for a few days and then try to open the cage and hold my hand with some millet still on its stem (to give him some distance again in the new situation) and see how he reacts. With my previous budgie the last step was to hold the millet above my hand so he had to step up on it to get it, that's how I hand tamed all my previous birds, going to try that again with this one. I always leave the choice up to them though as you said.

I'm also trying to start him on pellets by mixing it in with his seed mix (the "breeder" weaned him on seeds) but he isn't touching them, going to read up a bit on how to facilitate this transition. With my previous birds I just taught them to eat pellets right after I weaned them but this one is already used to seeds

I hope I don't have to clip him, I'm going to try to hand tame him inside the cage before I let him out, perhaps with stick training as you suggested. If that takes too long I'll consider clipping him but I'd really rather not, I hate grabbing birds unless it's absolutely necessary

Cheers

Tom

[linda040899]

I hope I don't have to clip him, I'm going to try to hand tame him inside the cage before I let him out, perhaps with stick training as you suggested. If that takes too long I'll consider clipping him but I'd really rather not, I hate grabbing birds unless it's absolutely necessary
I agree completely! Sounds like he's getting more and more comfortable with you so just keep going at his pace.

An all pellet diet for lovebirds (and other parrots native to Africa) is not a good thing. Lovebirds need a diet higher in fat content than non-African species. Pellets are low fat, plus they are made from seed. My own avian vet recommends no more than 20% pellets for ANY small bird because pellets actually contain too much nutrition for their systems to handle. If you can find Lafeber's Nutriberries, they contain some pellets. All of my flock love them so I have to make sure my bag is never empty!! :lol

[BlueBull]

I agree completely! Sounds like he's getting more and more comfortable with you so just keep going at his pace.

An all pellet diet for lovebirds (and other parrots native to Africa) is not a good thing. Lovebirds need a diet higher in fat content than non-African species. Pellets are low fat, plus they are made from seed. My own avian vet recommends no more than 20% pellets for ANY small bird because pellets actually contain too much nutrition for their systems to handle. If you can find Lafeber's Nutriberries, they contain some pellets. All of my flock love them so I have to make sure my bag is never empty!! :lol
That is a funny coincidence, I just bought some nutriberries yesterday to try out, the tropical fruit variety or something like that. So far he hasn't touched them but next I'm going to try breaking them up in smaller crumbles to see if he takes to that more easily. I indeed read everywhere that most birds take to the nutriberries really well. I didn't know that about pellets though, interesting, I read about them years back and concluded that because there are so many websites advocating them they must be good. Guess you learn something new every day, thanks for the info

Cheers

Tom

[linda040899]

Some lovebirds prefer the Nutriberries broken up (mine do), while others enjoy the whole "berry." I've tried all the different flavors and the favorite comes out as El Paso, but I change varieties to give them different tastes. I have an older Double Yellow Headed Amazon who used to love seed but seed put on weight, which is not good for an Amazon. So, I give him a little bit of seed, a bowl full of Nutriberries and different nuts each day. He just went in for his annual exam and he's lost a healthy 50 grams in a year! My vet is very happy! :)

[BlueBull]

Some lovebirds prefer the Nutriberries broken up (mine do), while others enjoy the whole "berry." I've tried all the different flavors and the favorite comes out as El Paso, but I change varieties to give them different tastes. I have an older Double Yellow Headed Amazon who used to love seed but seed put on weight, which is not good for an Amazon. So, I give him a little bit of seed, a bowl full of Nutriberries and different nuts each day. He just went in for his annual exam and he's lost a healthy 50 grams in a year! My vet is very happy! :)
Thanks once more for the tip, I've ordered a small bag of the el Paso variety. Do you have any tips on enticing them to try out something new? Should I still mix in seed or should I take away the seed to prevent him from only picking those out? I read that parrots sometimes rather go hungry than try something new, even if you only offer the new food item so I'm wondering what would be best. He's also very hesitant to eat vegetables, it will be a challenge to get him to eat a balanced diet I can see already but luckily he's still young so hopefully not yet completely set in his ways

Cheers

Tom

[linda040899]

The best thing to do is just add the Nutriberries in with his regular food. You are correct in saying that parrots will starve themselves to death rather than eat something that they don't perceive as food. This happened too many times when pellets were first introduced and bird owners tried to introduce pellets "cold turkey." I would break them up and just add them to the food dish. Eventually, your lovebird will eat a bit of what you want to add and perhaps decide that this isn't so evil after all. As for veggies, I usually try fresh carrots first. I found that mine love long shredded pieces because they can twirl them in their beaks and the juice tastes good. I would only add a couple of pieces and take them out if not eaten with 6 hours so they don't spoil. Again, be persistent and see what happens.

[BlueBull]

The best thing to do is just add the Nutriberries in with his regular food. You are correct in saying that parrots will starve themselves to death rather than eat something that they don't perceive as food. This happened too many times when pellets were first introduced and bird owners tried to introduce pellets "cold turkey." I would break them up and just add them to the food dish. Eventually, your lovebird will eat a bit of what you want to add and perhaps decide that this isn't so evil after all. As for veggies, I usually try fresh carrots first. I found that mine love long shredded pieces because they can twirl them in their beaks and the juice tastes good. I would only add a couple of pieces and take them out if not eaten with 6 hours so they don't spoil. Again, be persistent and see what happens.
Understood, then that's the way I'll do it. I'll also make sure to get some carrots and try giving him a long shredded piece, that's actually a great idea, all my previous budgies liked to nibble on long shreds of paper so it appears that that shape indeed appeals to them. I even had one that used to put those pieces of paper in his tail between his tail feathers and walked around with them :D I've learned so much in joining this forum, that's awesome. I'll probably have more questions in the future, I tend to ask a lot of them on topics I'm not familiar with (like lovebirds)

Cheers

Tom

[linda040899]

Glad we can be of help! All the experience here is aimed towards what birds actually like, not what we perceive they should like. Sometimes if one thing doesn't please them, you try a variation and see how they react. I've learned to respect their wishes and show them respect. While we may think we want them to step up and socialize with us, they may be playing or resting. In that case, I simply try again later rather than trying to dominantly force the issue. That's what makes us part of their flock! :)

[BlueBull]

Glad we can be of help! All the experience here is aimed towards what birds actually like, not what we perceive they should like. Sometimes if one thing doesn't please them, you try a variation and see how they react. I've learned to respect their wishes and show them respect. While we may think we want them to step up and socialize with us, they may be playing or resting. In that case, I simply try again later rather than trying to dominantly force the issue. That's what makes us part of their flock! :)
Yup, that's exactly how I've always treated my birds. I never forced them into anything unless there was no other choice (vet appointment and they wouldn't go into their cage for instance). I think birds, certainly in the parrot family, understand this and trust you more because of it. My previous birds were all a bit too trusting even if there is such a thing. I could for instance walk over them when they were on the floor and lift my foot up until it was right above them (don't worry, as a test) and they just stayed put in stead of flying or running away. They just trusted me to not tread on them, no self-preservation reflex whatsoever. I had to really watch out where I walked and sat down because of that, but that's of course only a small price to pay for being trusted so much

Cheers

Tom

[linda040899]

They just trusted me to not tread on them, no self-preservation reflex whatsoever. I had to really watch out where I walked and sat down because of that, but that's of course only a small price to pay for being trusted so much
That's the kind of relationship that is so important! Too many people think trust is built in a few hours. Nope, nope, nope! Kindness, time, patience, respect and lots of loving attention will get you what you want. Keep up the good work!

[BlueBull]

Update: I can now feed him millet inside his cage without him freaking out. I also don't have to leave any stem on them for distance, he eats them from right between my fingers. He even nibbles my finger a few times while I'm feeding him, but never hard, more like to say "thank you", a bit like the preening kisses birds give each other or sometimes humans as well. I can also do things inside his cage like add or remove perches and he just sits and watches me, though still from a distance. He used to go absolutely bonkers when my hand went into the cage. Tomorrow I'm going to try to get him to step up by placing the millet on my hand so he has to step up to reach it

I think he is also eating both the varieties of the nutri-berries I got for him, though it's hard to tell because I still mix in some seed and they throw a lot of food on the floor as it is. I did however see him eat some pieces of nutri-berrie a few times so I think he has taken to them. Great tip, thank you

Will update again when I have him tamed (when he has accepted me into his flock completely I mean)

[linda040899]

Fantastic update!!! Time, patience, love and kindness will be returned 100 fold! I'm glad he likes the Nutriberries but please don't take away all of his other seed. He really needs the oil in the sunflower seed!

[BlueBull]

Fantastic update!!! Time, patience, love and kindness will be returned 100 fold! I'm glad he likes the Nutriberries but please don't take away all of his other seed. He really needs the oil in the sunflower seed!
Understood, I will make sure to keep mixing in some seed to balance his diet. I had already bought some sunflower seeds but was planning to use these as a treat, but I'm going to follow your advice and mix in a bit of them as well next to the nutri-berries and the normal seed mix, since the normal seed mix does not contain sunflower seeds, though it is a high quality seed mix or should be at least (it also contains some egg food)

[linda040899]

Good game plan!!! Before you know it, you are going to have a velcro birdie who thinks he needs to be attached to your person 24/7/365!!! :lol

[BlueBull]

Hello again

I am making great progress. I managed to get him to step on to my finger by offering millet he can only reach by stepping up. He doesn't hesitate anymore, just steps right up and has been for a few days now. With previous birds I then first offered the finger and gave the millet as a reward afterwards as soon as they stepped up, to teach them to step up without having to lure them on. However, this bird does not seem to understand what I want when I try this, which is of course not his fault, it is mine. I've been trying for the past few days and the furthest I've gotten is having him put one foot on my finger very briefly and hesitantly, after which I immediately offered the millet. That was a few days ago though, haven't gotten him to do that since. Should I just keep trying this? Or do you have a technique for making clear what I would like him to do? The reason I want to speed up the process is not because I'm impatient but because I really want to let him out of his cage, I feel sorry for him being locked in there day in and day out. But I don't want to have to catch him as I already explained, so I need to teach him to step up without the millet first, since there is no guarantee that he will do it even with the millet outside of the cage

Thanks again for all the information, it has been an amazing help

Tom

[linda040899]

Thanks for the great update! You are making progress, even though it's slow. :)

You may find it's easier to get him to step up onto a perch rather than your finger. Many parrots view human hands as evil while a perch is non-threatening. You can continue to offer the millet. You also have to remember that he views his cage as "safe." You haven't had him very long and he's still learning. A trust relationship takes time and there really are no short cuts. You have to go at their pace. I have an imported African Grey who has been with me since 1991. She loves to interact with me but she's the original touch me not! She will take food from my hand but if I try to touch her, she growls and screams like someone is killing her! I've come to accept the relationship as she wants it, even though I have to towel her occasionally to trim her nails. That is an adventure in itself. She doesn't hold the toweling against me. She just doesn't like her nails trimmed! :lol

[BlueBull]

Thanks for the great update! You are making progress, even though it's slow. :)

You may find it's easier to get him to step up onto a perch rather than your finger. Many parrots view human hands as evil while a perch is non-threatening. You can continue to offer the millet. You also have to remember that he views his cage as "safe." You haven't had him very long and he's still learning. A trust relationship takes time and there really are no short cuts. You have to go at their pace. I have an imported African Grey who has been with me since 1991. She loves to interact with me but she's the original touch me not! She will take food from my hand but if I try to touch her, she growls and screams like someone is killing her! I've come to accept the relationship as she wants it, even though I have to towel her occasionally to trim her nails. That is an adventure in itself. She doesn't hold the toweling against me. She just doesn't like her nails trimmed! :lol
Thank you for your answer. So, to be clear, you don't think I should continue on the path I'm on with trying to teach him to perch on my finger? Reason I ask is because it appears that he isn't afraid of my hands anymore, or almost isn't, because he jumps on without hesitation and without fearful body language. He also continues playing with his toys like normal when my hands are in the cage, something that would have been impossible just a few weeks ago. It seems like he just doesn't understand I want him to jump on without the millet. But, if you think that continuing like this would have some negative effect, I will take your advice and move to teaching him to step on a perch. I do hope then that some day I can teach him to step up on my finger, because if he won't, of course things like head scratches and other activities involving hands would be impossible. Like you say, if that is what he prefers then that is how our relationship will be, as I said I never force my birds in to anything, however if it is a possibility I do have a preference for teaching them to step onto a finger

Take care

Tom

[linda040899]

I would work with both hand and perch training. He doesn't seem to be terrified of your hands but he may step up onto a perch without millet bribery and then you can transfer him to your hand. You may have to try different things and see just how he responds. Obviously, he's comfortable being around your hands.

[BlueBull]

I would work with both hand and perch training. He doesn't seem to be terrified of your hands but he may step up onto a perch without millet bribery and then you can transfer him to your hand. You may have to try different things and see just how he responds. Obviously, he's comfortable being around your hands.
Understood. I have started with perch training and already the second time I tried, he hopped on without first offering the millet, that was really surprising. I will continue this and gradually try to make him more comfortable with hands as well. Though it doesn't appear that he is fearful of my hands, the difference in response to a perch shows that it's not only a matter of him not understanding what I want, since he jumped on the perch right away but doesn't do so with my finger, at least not without the millet. I do think that finger perching will be possible eventually, judging from the fact that he isn't completely terrified of it, just apparently a little apprehensive. Thank you again

[linda040899]

Understood. I have started with perch training and already the second time I tried, he hopped on without first offering the millet, that was really surprising. I will continue this and gradually try to make him more comfortable with hands as well. Though it doesn't appear that he is fearful of my hands, the difference in response to a perch shows that it's not only a matter of him not understanding what I want, since he jumped on the perch right away but doesn't do so with my finger, at least not without the millet. I do think that finger perching will be possible eventually, judging from the fact that he isn't completely terrified of it, just apparently a little apprehensive. Thank you again
This is a good thing! He's familiar with perches so it appears that he's readily accepted and understands what you want so you can work from the perch to your hand. I've always said that a trust relationship can be formed with any parrot. The only unknown is how that relationship will play out. I have several that want interaction but don't touch. I have others that will follow me everywhere and yet others that fall somewhere between that. You simply have to get to know your own bird and do what's best for it. :)

[BlueBull]

This is a good thing! He's familiar with perches so it appears that he's readily accepted and understands what you want so you can work from the perch to your hand. I've always said that a trust relationship can be formed with any parrot. The only unknown is how that relationship will play out. I have several that want interaction but don't touch. I have others that will follow me everywhere and yet others that fall somewhere between that. You simply have to get to know your own bird and do what's best for it. :)
Indeed, he seems to understand. I'm going to concentrate on perch training but will occasionally alternate with finger training. The coming weekend I'm going to let him out for the first time. I'm going to open his cage door and let him decide if he wants to come out or not. I'm going to do this early in the day so there is ample time for him to return to his cage on his own volition, which makes sure I won't have to go catching him. I can't wait, finally I can give him the freedom he deserves, I think he's going to be overjoyed. I have put up perching spots that have toys, food and water throughout the entire apartment, high up, so I think he's going to like it

Sounds like you have a lot of birds, that must be so nice, never a dull moment in your house :) too bad I have neigbours on all sides, so I can't get the really big birds because of the screaming and I can't get too many birds either. One day when I have my own house, it's going to look the same as yours, I've always wanted to have a real flock of birds

[linda040899]

Hard to predict what will happen when you open his cage door so he can come out if he wants to. His cage is safety and he may hesitate or he may feel safe enough and come right out. The perch training might come in handy if you need to help him return to his cage so you don't have to catch him. I actually have different perches for different birds, mostly because I have a combination of large and smaller parrots.

This may surprise you, but the larger bird that seems to be the least noisy, as far as squawking, is the African Grey. Mine don't screech. They talk or whistle. My female Grey has a very limited vocabulary but can mimic a police siren to perfection. You can't tell the difference! She's an import from Africa and when I first got her, you would have thought that Africa was my back yard. She can do lions and monkeys quite well when she wants to.

Macaws and Amazons make the most noise and most conures can put out some decibels, too. I have 2 Green Cheeks who are relatively quiet. About half of my larger birds are rescues. Their owners didn't want them and they found homes with me. My male Amazon came from abusive homes and it's taken him probably 10 years to unpack the baggage from what he went through. No one really knew how old he is but lately, his amber colored eyes are beginning to turn red and that's a sign that he's probably somewhere between 30 - 40. He's been with me for about 12 yrs and he will never be re-homed.

[BlueBull]

Hard to predict what will happen when you open his cage door so he can come out if he wants to. His cage is safety and he may hesitate or he may feel safe enough and come right out. The perch training might come in handy if you need to help him return to his cage so you don't have to catch him. I actually have different perches for different birds, mostly because I have a combination of large and smaller parrots.

Well, it was mostly a positive experience for both of us. I left his cage door open and placed some millet on a kind of platform in front of the cage, then I retreated to a distance. He came out almost immediately and started nibbling on it. Then he flew a bit, though quite panicky and wildly in all directions, which is normal since it is a strange environment. A few times he landed somewhere and after that was looking around pretty bewildered, again normal. What made it a positive experience for me as well is that as soon as I moved over to him and held up a perch a little distance away, he immediately scooted over and jumped on, after which I could bring him back to his cage. It seems he trusts us enough to know I want to help him. He did this every time, always instantly and always without apparent fear. He is now back in his cage though the cage door is open, so I'll leave it open permanently from now on. Going to keep a close eye on him though for a while, to see he doesn't panic too much


This may surprise you, but the larger bird that seems to be the least noisy, as far as squawking, is the African Grey. Mine don't screech. They talk or whistle. My female Grey has a very limited vocabulary but can mimic a police siren to perfection. You can't tell the difference! She's an import from Africa and when I first got her, you would have thought that Africa was my back yard. She can do lions and monkeys quite well when she wants to.

Macaws and Amazons make the most noise and most conures can put out some decibels, too. I have 2 Green Cheeks who are relatively quiet. About half of my larger birds are rescues. Their owners didn't want them and they found homes with me. My male Amazon came from abusive homes and it's taken him probably 10 years to unpack the baggage from what he went through. No one really knew how old he is but lately, his amber colored eyes are beginning to turn red and that's a sign that he's probably somewhere between 30 - 40. He's been with me for about 12 yrs and he will never be re-homed.
That is indeed surprising. I have a friend with 2 African Greys and while I love those birds it would be very hard to live with for me personally, they screech almost constantly and are extremely loud. They are sweethearts though, both of them. I find it to be very admirable that you have so many rescues, since that is no easy tasks what with all the ingrained habits and fears and such, which I assume can be quite difficult to work with. I am truly glad they found a good home with you, I never understood how you can get rid of any pet, even if there are behaviour issues (that are probably caused by the owner in most cases). People should read more about what an animal is really like and what behaviour they can display if not handled correctly, before going out and getting one. This should never be done on a whim. I would rather seek out a bird psychologist or trainer or something like that, or accept the behaviour than I would get rid of my birds. But, luckily they are better off now. I can understand even less, people that would abuse an animal. In my opinion if someone can abuse an animal they have a dark personality and are capable of doing the same to humans without a doubt. Horrific and despicable. Thank you for being there for those poor animals

[linda040899]

I'm so glad the perch training is working out with positive effects!!! In case of an emergency, he will come to the perch without hesitation! :) Sure beats having to chase them and towel them. Once he is comfortable going to the perch and once he is totally familiar with his environment, you can also teach him to go into his cage on command. I use the phrase "in your cage" and my larger birds know exactly what I want and they go to their cages. Sometimes they are stubborn and don't go on the first command, so I simply repeat what I want until they do. It's all about communication and being consistent with them.

I agree that there are far too many misunderstood birds. People purchase them on impulse and don't do their research. Parrots are not for everyone and many don't find good loving homes. That bothers me to no end but I can only take just so many rescues. This board exists strictly for education and I try my best to help, based on my own experience. Now with covid-19 and loss of income, there are all sorts of animals that have been displaced. Not knowing where things will go, I'm trying to plan ahead so that I will always be able to take care of the feathered creatures that live with me, and that included about 20 chickens!

[BlueBull]

I'm so glad the perch training is working out with positive effects!!! In case of an emergency, he will come to the perch without hesitation! :) Sure beats having to chase them and towel them. Once he is comfortable going to the perch and once he is totally familiar with his environment, you can also teach him to go into his cage on command. I use the phrase "in your cage" and my larger birds know exactly what I want and they go to their cages. Sometimes they are stubborn and don't go on the first command, so I simply repeat what I want until they do. It's all about communication and being consistent with them.
Yes indeed I'm glad too, it was totally unexpected when he jumped on immediately. I didn't even expect him to come out of his cage, let alone trust such a huge animal towering over you (he mostly landed on the floor) in a strange environment. Really glad with how it turned out. Also, interesting idea to teach him to go to his cage, that's definately something I will try further down the road, thanks


I agree that there are far too many misunderstood birds. People purchase them on impulse and don't do their research. Parrots are not for everyone and many don't find good loving homes. That bothers me to no end but I can only take just so many rescues. This board exists strictly for education and I try my best to help, based on my own experience. Now with covid-19 and loss of income, there are all sorts of animals that have been displaced. Not knowing where things will go, I'm trying to plan ahead so that I will always be able to take care of the feathered creatures that live with me, and that included about 20 chickens!
There should be some kind of license to keep a pet, like a drivers license for a car. Just some specific questions you need to answer before you get to keep that specific animal that indicate you know what you're doing and getting into. It's almost impossible to arrange something like that and it wouldn't solve every instance of neglect or abuse but like you I am really bothered by how people sometimes treat their pet, be it because they are malignant or are ignorant of the animal in question. I would rather go hungry myself than let my pets go hungry. It is a huge responsibility (and an obligation) taking care of an animal because in my opinion, once you decide to get a pet, you have to make sure he is treated and fed well, since if you hadn't taken him into your home, he might have gone to someone that would have treated and fed him properly. You made that decision for the animal, he doesn't have a choice, so you are responsible. It is rather simple. I hope you weren't talking about yourself when you spoke of "loss of income" by the way but if you were, I hope it turns out alright for you soon. Take care and stay safe

[linda040899]

There should be some kind of license to keep a pet, like a drivers license for a car. Just some specific questions you need to answer before you get to keep that specific animal that indicate you know what you're doing and getting into. It's almost impossible to arrange something like that and it wouldn't solve every instance of neglect or abuse but like you I am really bothered by how people sometimes treat their pet, be it because they are malignant or are ignorant of the animal in question. I would rather go hungry myself than let my pets go hungry. It is a huge responsibility (and an obligation) taking care of an animal because in my opinion, once you decide to get a pet, you have to make sure he is treated and fed well, since if you hadn't taken him into your home, he might have gone to someone that would have treated and fed him properly. You made that decision for the animal, he doesn't have a choice, so you are responsible. It is rather simple. I hope you weren't talking about yourself when you spoke of "loss of income" by the way
I happen to agree with you on this topic 100% and I take pet ownership very seriously. The problem with licensing is the lack of ability to enforce it. There are so many backyard breeders of all kinds of animals and there aren't enough people to track them all down. When I was breeding, I was very particular about who got my birds. My birds had no choice in where they went and it was up to me to make sure they went to responsible people. I always said if something changed, I would take my birds back, no questions asked. If I were to run short of money, my birds would get fed first. When I said loss of income, I was not referring to myself. I plan well and anticipate things that can happen. I don't believe in debt and I do my best to remain debt free. Sure is much easier that way!

[BlueBull]

So I've been slowly getting him used to being outside of the cage with us near and have been making slow but steady progress. Today however, all of the sudden, he seems to have decided I was safe because not only did he fly to my shoulder without me offering him a treat to lure him, about 10 minutes later this happened. I was just showing him I had some sunflower seeds, and was going to feed them to him, I didn't expect him to jump on, at all. My previous birds were all okay with fingers and the backside of hands but they always remained hesitant towards the palm side of hands, I think because they realize that side is used for grabbing. This one just skipped the finger perch and jumped straight on my palm. Always a magical moment when this happens for the first time :happy: I seem to have been deemed worthy of his trust
https://i.imgur.com/HC4oCqf.jpg

[linda040899]

Fantastic! This is the trust relationship you want and it's developing perfectly. You are not forcing him to do something/accept something he does not like or want to do. He is accepting you as a member of his flock. He is not afraid of you. :clap:clap:clap

[BlueBull]

I'm extremely glad indeed. I wasn't expecting it to change so quickly and was alright with having to take it slow and spending lots of time showing him I don't mean any harm and that he's part of our family. But he seems to have changed overnight into this:

Before you know it, you are going to have a velcro birdie who thinks he needs to be attached to your person 24/7/365!!! :lol
This morning I opened his cage and he flew right from the entrance to my shoulder, and now when I need to do something in another room (we are keeping the rest of the house closed-off to him for now, until he knows the room he's in sufficiently) I can't seem to put him on his cage and leave fast enough, he just flies right back :D he's also climbing all over me and I can put my hand right up to him and he just nibbles it, or jumps on. Really strange (though amazing of course), I've never had a bird change his opinion of me so quickly and so suddenly. I think we're going to be great friends

[linda040899]

I've seen this happen so many times and it just makes me believe that love, time, patience and kindness, and attention pays off 1,000 fold. You can't force a parrot to like you. That has to come from within and it happens only when he feels safe. :happy::happy::happy:

[BlueBull]

Again a positive update, with a question included as well

It's progressing nicely, he seems to be on the road to fully accepting us into the flock. As soon as the cage doors open he flies over and stays at our side almost the entire day. We will have to work a bit to keep things balanced because at this point he seems to be spending 90% of the time with me and only 10% with my girlfriend. I think this is because I have a lot more experience with birds than she has, our previous bird was hand-fed so it was almost no work or practice to form a bond with and that was her first bird companion while I've been around birds most of my life. We are taking care of it by having my girlfriend play more with him and me a bit less, shouldn't be a problem if we keep working on that. I have a friend with a big lovebird flock and he tells me they are known to really bond with 1 person if you don't balance it out and in extreme cases that can lead to jealousy and aggression even, that's why we're working on it at this point already

Yesterday he took a bath in my hands under a running tap so the fear of hands is slowly disappearing as well. I've been practicing with sunflower seeds. At first I needed to give him a seed to get him to step up, that then progressed to giving him a seed as soon as he stepped up, holding the seed in such a way he needed to step up to get to it and now I can already have him step up by just showing him a seed from a distance and offering my finger, after which he steps up and gets a seed. Next step is stepping up without a seed

He also seems to be a bit nippy but it is definitely not malice or fear I'm certain, his body language doesn't reflect either of those things. I think in most cases he's trying to preen me but just doesn't realize how sharp his beak is and how sensitive human skin is. In other cases it's exploratory, he nibbles my nose or ear a few times but increases pressure each time, until it's too much and it hurts. So, I've read a bit about it and now when he puts even a tiny bit too much pressure in a nibble, before it actually hurts, I scream and stop what I'm doing and leave the room. I can always hear him calling out to me when I do this. After a few times it appears that he's watching out more and the painful nibbles seem to slowly become less frequent. Is this the right way? Or would you suggest some other method? Perhaps without the scream?

All in all, I couldn't ask for more, it's going great on all fronts! I love him already, he's a great companion to have and our relationship is still really young so it's only going to get better if we work on it.

I seem to have written a wall of text again, woops :nyah:

[linda040899]

I do seem to remember saying that once you gain his trust, he will think he needs to be velcroed to your person 24/7....... :lol My female Blue Front Amazon is exactly the same way.

In my experience, parrots seem to have their favorite person, but letting a partner interact with them will at least get them to spend time with the partner, as well. I have that in my own family. While I've found I can't change who the favorite is, I can at least get my parrots to allow others to handle them. Simply allowing the interaction is the key to having that happen.

My Amazon is usually very gentle, but occasionally she applies to much pressure so I take my fingers and stop what she is doing that hurts me. I tell her either "easy" or "no bite." They really don't realize they are applying too much pressure so I let them know gently. My late husband used to tell my Timneh Grey "no bite." Well, it wasn't too long before Harley was telling my late husband "no bite"! He knew what the phrase meant and he was letting Jim know!

I have no problems reading long messages! I love updates. :)

[BlueBull]

I do seem to remember saying that once you gain his trust, he will think he needs to be velcroed to your person 24/7....... :lol My female Blue Front Amazon is exactly the same way.

In my experience, parrots seem to have their favorite person, but letting a partner interact with them will at least get them to spend time with the partner, as well. I have that in my own family. While I've found I can't change who the favorite is, I can at least get my parrots to allow others to handle them. Simply allowing the interaction is the key to having that happen.

My Amazon is usually very gentle, but occasionally she applies to much pressure so I take my fingers and stop what she is doing that hurts me. I tell her either "easy" or "no bite." They really don't realize they are applying too much pressure so I let them know gently. My late husband used to tell my Timneh Grey "no bite." Well, it wasn't too long before Harley was telling my late husband "no bite"! He knew what the phrase meant and he was letting Jim know!

I have no problems reading long messages! I love updates. :)
Haha indeed, you predicted this to a tee. I don't mind at all of course, all my previous birds were like that so I'm used to it, I like it even. Also, as you say, we are trying to have her spend a little more time with my girlfriend than with me and it seems like he seeks her out a bit more now so that's good as well. The biting/too much pressure when nibbling is getting less and less so that's good, he seems to be getting the point.

I have an additional question, also stemming from the fact that lovebirds appear to have very different personalities than budgies so my experience with certain things is lacking: we notice that he is increasingly displaying territorial aggression inside his cage. This in itself is no problem at all, it's his cage and his safe spot and I respect that, he can even defend that if he wants as far as I'm concerned. What I wanted to ask is: do you think this could evolve to aggression outside of the cage and so do you think we should do something about it? So far, it only happens when he's in his cage and a hand or a finger comes in, he will puff up and lunge at it. If you think that this will stay like that, for me that's not a problem and I will just make sure to only do things inside the cage when he isn't in it, he doesn't get aggressive when I go into his cage when he's outside it, he just gets curious in that case. However I want to make sure that because we don't work on it, it doesn't escalate to aggression outside of the cage

Thanks again & cheers

Tom

[linda040899]

we notice that he is increasingly displaying territorial aggression inside his cage. This in itself is no problem at all, it's his cage and his safe spot and I respect that, he can even defend that if he wants as far as I'm concerned. What I wanted to ask is: do you think this could evolve to aggression outside of the cage and so do you think we should do something about it? So far, it only happens when he's in his cage and a hand or a finger comes in, he will puff up and lunge at it. If you think that this will stay like that, for me that's not a problem and I will just make sure to only do things inside the cage when he isn't in it, he doesn't get aggressive when I go into his cage when he's outside it, he just gets curious in that case. However I want to make sure that because we don't work on it, it doesn't escalate to aggression outside of the cage
Many Lovebirds, as well as other parrots, will defend their cages (homes) when an intruder enters it. It's normally just confined to inside the cage. I don't think I've ever had a bird that will defend the outside of the cage. Respect his attitude and work around it. Once he comes out, everything is fine so don't sweat the small stuff, so to speak! :lol

I'm glad to hear that he is spending time with your girlfriend. I have some that will spend some time with other people but I'm still the main slave.....

I am so glad that this is working out and you didn't resort to desensitization. As you are finding out, you can't force trust. It has to be earned!

[BlueBull]

Many Lovebirds, as well as other parrots, will defend their cages (homes) when an intruder enters it. It's normally just confined to inside the cage. I don't think I've ever had a bird that will defend the outside of the cage. Respect his attitude and work around it. Once he comes out, everything is fine so don't sweat the small stuff, so to speak! :lol

I'm glad to hear that he is spending time with your girlfriend. I have some that will spend some time with other people but I'm still the main slave.....

I am so glad that this is working out and you didn't resort to desensitization. As you are finding out, you can't force trust. It has to be earned!
Understood, then we will leave it like it is and work around it, my only concern was that he would at some point begin considering our entire home his territory and start defending that. I have no problem with him defending his home, it's the only spot where he's truly the boss and that needs to be respected. It was just an unknown behavior pattern to me because my budgies never did that, so probably this is at least in part species-dependent

I suspect indeed I'll remain the main slave as well but it appears he is spending time with her on his own volition as well so that's perfect. Also, I was never truly considering using the desensitization method, it just seemed like animal abuse to me and I was wondering if that was a valid method truly used with birds or that the vet was just a closet sadist. I do wonder how many people that vet influenced in treating their bird like that

I'm indeed glad it worked out like this, it's without a doubt the start of a beautiful friendship, couldn't have done it without your help so thanks again

[linda040899]

I can understand the concern that he might consider the entire house as his "home" but I've never had that in my experience. Larger parrots can do that but not normally smaller birds. I have an Amazon who thinks everyone needs to stay where they are and she can get defensive if my macaws are out and about so, when the macaws are out, she is not.

You would be surprised at how many vets give advice that I, personally, would never follow. You need to get to know your vet. They are usually good at treating illness but know little to nothing about breeding and even nutrition. They are not behaviorists and would have to have a huge amount of experience with many different parrots for that. I remember the week-end that my male African Grey got sick. I took him to 2 emergency clinics and the last one wanted to hospitalize him so he could be on oxygen. I asked for a gram stain to see if it indicated an infection. They would not do it, as they had no vet on staff that could read the results. The last clinic called around and finally found an avian vet who would do the gram stain. In the end, my grey truly did have an infection that would have killed him if he was not given an antibiotic! The better you know your own bird, the better you will be at making different kinds of decisions for him.

[Kenneth91619]

This is interesting because I have used the avian vets technique. I have used it on 2 pairs of lovebirds when i was a kid and more recently I used this method with my parrotlet whom I had for 8 years before I was forced to rehome due to moving between states and my new places not allowing pets. I can say confidently from my experiences this doesnt just tame your bird but your bird will bond with you just as well as taking the long route to taming a bird by waiting for the bird to allow you to progress. My birds (both pairs of lovebirds and my parrotlet) were trained in flight recall, basic commands like step up/down, go home (cage), and stay. They were just as bonded to me and my family as my uncles African Grey who he took 3 months to fully tame and bond with. They would eat breakfast with me and would follow me anywhere in the house. I never tried my birds wings its important for them to feel confident in getting away to safety. They would come when called and enjoyed my company. My parrotlet more then my previous lovebirds would chirp up a storm when he wanted out to hang out. Each had their own personalities but all where bonded to me and were deafly afraid of going outside lol. The only difference I did was at the time of taming I would spend over 4 hours cuddling my birds and talking to them, singing and making kissing sounds. I feel people like to judge a technique before they are able to use it themselves. Do I think its full proof absolutely not all birds are different and rescue parrots might suffer from this technique instead especially if they have trama with hands. My birds didnt just tolerate me they loved me to bits I can testify to that through 1000s of hours of obervations and studying parrot behaviors. I love learning about animals and I never stop reading and finding new techniques and tips. Lastly almost forgot not sure if this plays a big role they were all fully weaned babies at the time of taming and non ever bite me during taming. If you have a biter or older bird might not work.