Clip.. Yes or No?

[Mandolin]

Hi Everyone,
Hope you all and all your birds are doing great. I didn't know where to post this because it is has 2 parts and could fit in two sections. So i thought here would be good. First, How long do lovies molt for? Kameko has been molting for a few months now it seems. When she first started she got incredibly sick so i remember when it all started. She is still molting becaus eshe pulled out a tail feather today and a new flight feather came in aswell. Is it normal to take this long? I know they molt a few times a year normally but at this rate one molt is just going to run into the next.
Now on that note. As she is getting her primamry flight feathers back, should i clip them again? She is very tame and i plan to keep her that way. She just hates hates hates it when you touch her wings and i don't want to stress her out if i don't have too. She doesn't go anywhere else but my room really so she wouldn't be in any danger. The only time she would have a little more room to fly is when she is at my boyfriends house and she goes to visit with everyone. Right now she does the typical clipped wing flight. One more thing. If i let them grow in, since they don't seem to grow in uniformly is she in danger of not being able to fly normally?
Sorry for blabbing on, thanks for reading and any advice you have will be greatly appreciated. :D :D :D

[graushill]

Hi Mandolin,

I thought I would give a shot at answering your questions :). As far as I understand, there are no fixed rules when it comes to molting. I've read that most lovies will undergo a couple or so major molts a year, and that apart from that you can expect a few feather to fall out most days, and that is completely normal. That said, out of all the four birdies I've taken care of, only one has had the "normal molt", all the other three molt at their own rates, and they are perfectly healthy. As long as Kameko doesn't develop any bald patches, and the new feathers come out okay, then she should be doing just fine :). The part of your post that concerns me a little is that you say that she got very sick when she first started molting and I have never heard/experienced that. I'm sure someone with more experience will answer and tell if that's something you should be concerned about or not.

As for the wing clip, in my opinion, that is up to you :). Many advocate wing clips because it makes the birdies fly lower and slower, which makes it easier both to manage their out of cage time as well as safer for the birides as they can't develop the speed at which they could crash hard into a window or a mirror if they get spooked for example. I usually clip my birdies once, when they first move in with me, as that's when they are unfamiliar with windows and doors and mirrors and such. I let the flights grow out after that because I do think the clip stresses them out a lot. I live in a fairly small apartment that is quite bird safe I believe and there's only me and my husband around, so this arrangement has worked well for me. That is only my opinion and others might have a different experience.

I hope this helps a little. I'm sure you'll get more answers.

Gloria

[Janie]

I agree with Gloria about the molting. My older bird, Oliver, has gone through a couple that seemed to go on forever! He usually has two major molts a year and typically, they last for 5 or 6 weeks but some have lasted longer. My younger lovies are just now six months old and they are both dropping feathers like crazy but for the most part, it's the little downy feathers and very few flights.

OK, on the wing clipping.....again, as Gloria mentioned, it is a personal choice and if your bird is in a safe room and manageable w/o a clip, that's fine. Because Oliver is SO tame, I decided to let his wings grow to full flight.....one time! :eek: In my case, it didn't work! My tame bird was all over the place and often on top of the bookcase which is 9 feet high! :D That was about a year and a half ago so it could be that his reaction to full flight now would be different. I'd only had him for about 6 months when I first tried the full flight and he is much more bonded to me now so I might try it again. As far as my other two, I doubt that I'll ever let them become fully flighted. They are so bonded to each other and I'm sure they would get into a lot of trouble, together, if they could! :lol They'd be OK in their bird room but not in the rest of the house. My family room has a 20 foot vaulted ceiling and I'm sure they'd fly right up to the ceiling fan and I'd never be able to get them down. I'd suggest that you try full flight with Kameko and if it works out well, fine and if not, you can clip him or have him clipped. :)

[Buy A Paper Doll]

The short answer: Clip? Yes. I've read too many sad stories about birds dying because they flew into the wall or into a window. Clip just enough flights that he can't gain any height or speed, but can still glide safely to the ground and make a good landing. How many flights is that? Depends on the bird. Start with the outermost few flights and watch him fly, then clip one more on each side and try again. Keep taking off one on each side until you have it. As your bird gets older and stronger you may have to clip additional flights.

Hope this helps!

[Auntie Ron]

Hi,

I have never clipped a birds flights nor would i ever do that. I could not imagine how incredibly horrible that must feel like for the bird. I have seen birds try to fly after being clipped and they hit hard on their keel bone constantly when they land, so very sad. Instead i feel that as long as they know where their food and water are then let them out to fly, otherwise do not let them out. It takes a bit of adjustment to move breakables so they do not get knocked off of shelves and such, but having a bird that can fly is such a joy.

My very first lovie was a sweet peachface that came to live with me in 1989, his name was Andy and he was not tame at all. I began letting him out and soon he was all over me, he lived 11 years under my care and each year he became more and more my best friend. I could walk up to him at any moment and tell him to step up and he would allow me to put him back in his cage. I never cooked on the stove-top when he was out, and i was always aware of what he was up to. His favorite game was to find where i stashed my bills and shred them like little french fries; I often wondered what they thought when i sent a bill in half shredded LOL.

My newest Lovies since Andy came here this summer, seven of them all in the same cage. Had they been clipped they would have had a terrible time adjusting to their new aviary. Recently one of them lost a digit and bled out terribly, she is now here in the house and is just about ready to be let out of the cage for daily meanderings. Since i am home all day it will be nice to have the company as i move from room to room. I am sure she wont spend much time with me at first but as time allows she will soon learn that i am the best entertainment by far, she will come around as the years pass; I am not in any rush for Lovin'. Her name is now Lyndsey, she is so inquisitive i can only speculate the trouble she will cause LOL

I guess i am the odd-bird out on this subject, but i am a bird-brain none the less <smile> Wishing you luck in your decision.

Huggs, Auntie Ron

[Janie]

Auntie Ron, I don't think you are the "odd-bird out" on this subject but I do think that in most homes we're dealing with more than one human in the house (or animals) and that's where a major problem can occur if wings aren't clipped. If I lived alone I could definitely keep up with my birds and be sure they are safe but I'm also living with my hubby and two sons which means doors will be left open, windows left open and a bird on the floor could get stepped on. Again, it's the safety and security of the area where the bird will be that is most important when considering a wing clip. I don't do my own clips but I will say that none of my birds have ever hit the floor after a clip. They are all able to glide straight out and down. :)

[BarbieH]

We clip our birds every so often, but also let them grow out at times and give the birds a chance to exercise their muscles in flight. This can be very important for hens. Flight is said to help keep their pelvic muscles toned, and they need those muscles for safe egg laying.

For instance, I just saw Gracie attempt to fly; she recently laid a clutch of six eggs, and isn't flying well just yet. She will need to build up muscle strength when she is ready to come out.

[graushill]

Thanks Barb! I was wondering why Ms. Pontus has been flying funny lately, even after laying all the eggs of this clutch. They must lose muscle mass sitting in the nest so long, huh? She's out right now, and I'm doubly glad she's getting some excercise then.

And no Auntie Ron, you're not odd bird out :) . I can't knock the reasons why some people chose to clip wings, as safety is an important concern, but for myself, I've made the decision to not clip unless it's absolutely unavoidable. My Nemo, who in many ways has been my baptism by fire where birds are concerned, refused to eat for three days after being clipped, he was so traumatized, so I promised him I would never, ever do that to him again. I didn't clip Pidget either as he was a very weak flyer from years of not being let out of his cage except on very rare occassions, so in his case, we've been trying to develop his wing muscles rather than the opposite. He can now follow Nemo around without getting too winded and for him that's a great achievement. As I said, I think it's a personal choice, but that's my opinion.

And wow, Janie, your house sounds great! 20 ft high vaulted ceilings, now that's posh ;) .

Hugs,
Gloria

[mjm8321]

We clip most of our bird's wings, however, like Barb, they are also allowed full flight for several months a year...after all, they are birds and need to fly. ;)
Only you know your bird(s). Some do well with full flight; others do not know that windows, doors and mirrors are solid objects, nor have the depth perception I think to know that walls are also very solid. You might consider a small clip, several flights at first, to see your bird's abilty to fly and judgement with windows, etc... There is nothing more sickening than to watch a bird fly full steam into a window.

[BarbieH]

No problem Gloria. :) Somebody else mentioned it here, and of course I had to do some online research. Not clipping isn't generally recommended (in the U.S. at least) because, like you said, there are so many good reasons to clip for safety's sake. However, letting a hen fly for exercise is done for safety's sake where egg laying is involved.

They might lose muscle mass while sitting, but I think the bigger issue is that they lose muscle tone after passing their eggs. If they don't restore their tone, they have more trouble passing eggs in the future. I guess flight is like birdie Kiegel exercises. ;)

[Z28Taxman]

I don't clip Ditto's wings since I live alone (no doors left open or anyone coming in to worry about) and he seems to believe the only reason to fly is to get from where he is to where I am :cool: or back to his cage for a quick snack then back to me. He doesn't fly higher than shoulder level either.

When he first came to my house he had a horrible wing clip (poor little guy only had stubs where wings used be) and it took him over a year to be able to fly again without getting horribly out of breath just from flying across the room. I decided not to clip him again and bring back those memories unless he became unruly or a danger to himself. Fortunately he'd rather just hang out with me. If I want him to fly I almost have to run away from him to make him chase me (which is great fun btw!). :cool:

Like MJ said, only you know your bird and what you can get away with.

I have to add, that not only do I make sure the doors are closed (and locked) when he's out, I also close the bathroom door and keep the curtains closed to keep him from flying into the windows.

[Elle]

I haven't clipped Blu's wings this time. This is the fist time in 11 months that she is allowed to fly. Just like Barb mentioned, I want her to get some exercise.
Since she can fly, there has been a huge change in her attitude. She now is looking for our company. She will fly to us, instead of away from us and seems to genuinely want to spend time with us. She is no longer affraid of hands. She has fun jumping on them and nibbling at them. She will sleep on my finger now. Before, when she steps up on commmand, once on the hand or finger, she would jump on covered arm or shoulder.
My previous birds were not clipped after the training period was over ( about a year since my birds were not tame or socialised when I initailly got them). When I lived on my own it was no issue. Just me around.
Now that I have a husband and two step kids, its a little different. I know I can trust myself but I don't believe my step kids are responsible enough to be trusted. Blu is not out of the cage unless I let her out and I am around. If I leave, its back to the cage.
as a child, we lost a budgie who attempted to fly but went down instead of up. She ended up under the rocking chair while it was being used.

No matter what we do, our birds will always find a way to get into trouble. I guess the safest place is in their cage, but I know I will never be able to limit my birds to just that. :2cents:

[butterfly1061]

Clipped or unclipped, Molly is a strong flier. His muscles can lift him to the ceiling fan anytime. It was because of the ceiling fan I clipped him - he wouldn't come down and I chased him all over the house to get him one time :mad: He became very bitey and would not come down from places he flew to. For his safety I clipped him. Now, I do let those flights I clip grow back and let Molly get some good flying time in. Daisy on the other hand is a HEN in all sense of the word and she remains clipped. Yes, she can fly, but I keep those flights clipped. Piper has his/her flights and was very scared to fly when they grew in from being clipped by the breeder. I have let Piper keep them so s/he can build more confidence in him/herself. It seems to be working cause s/he will fly a little more distance each day. The surprised look on his/her face is priceless. I have worked with him/her on flying to me too. So as you can see it just depends on your bird. You know him or her best. :)

[Z28Taxman]

Clipped or unclipped, Molly is a strong flier. His muscles can lift him to the ceiling fan anytime. It was because of the ceiling fan I clipped him - he wouldn't come down and I chased him all over the house to get him one time :mad: He became very bitey and would not come down from places he flew to. For his safety I clipped him. Now, I do let those flights I clip grow back and let Molly get some good flying time in. Daisy on the other hand is a HEN in all sense of the word and she remains clipped. Yes, she can fly, but I keep those flights clipped. Piper has his/her flights and was very scared to fly when they grew in from being clipped by the breeder. I have let Piper keep them so s/he can build more confidence in him/herself. It seems to be working cause s/he will fly a little more distance each day. The surprised look on his/her face is priceless. I have worked with him/her on flying to me too. So as you can see it just depends on your bird. You him or her best. :)

Ditto used to play the catch the birdy game with Barb before he came to my house. That's one reason I had her get him clipped before he came to my house. I was supposed to be babysitting him while she went to school in Indiana and I had only seen him a few times and never for long. It took him almost a year after the flights grew back to have enough confidence to fly other than from my foot (on the arm of the couch) to the back of the couch. And even longer before he could fly at all without breathing like he just ran a marathon for 20 seconds or so after landing.

So far he's never given me a lick of trouble. Instead of catch the birdy it's more like catch daddy! :cool:

But if he gets unmanagable or becomes a danger to himself it's clip time.

[Keltoth]

Clip or no? For me ONLY, it all depends on the age of any given bird, the human/lovebird socialization level of that particular bird, and the health of the bird.

For example - as a hard, fast rule, EVERY bird that I obtain from outside of my own aviary gets a wingclip if they do not have one already when they get to my home. I do this party for safety reasons - because a startled bird who does not yet know your home can easily take flight and crash headlong into a wall or window, easily breaking non-fatal bones at best and their neck at worst - and partly for improved attention span on the part of the bird. NOTHING quells a rebellious winged spirit faster than a moderate flight-clipping; again, as example, when I brought Vincent home, he WOULD NOT step up or stay on command. No sir, no way. Then I clipped his wings, and literally 90 seconds later (after having first trying to fly away yet again and instead going to the floor in spite of his best efforts) he was stepping up on command and staying perched on my hand like he had been with us for weeks. Sure, he knew HOW to do it - but why should he, when he could fly away at will? Why should he listen to this giant bearded human, when he could do what he wanted?

Because that mean ol' sumab**ch clipped his wingies and MADE him have to listen, that's why! :lol

With chicks that are born into my own aviary, I first let them have two weeks of flight as they learn that that CAN fly, and then develop their skill at doing so, before I clip them when they start their step-up training in earnest - as a general rule. However, this rule is not so hard and fast a rule as the first rule I mentioned is; I let both Stormie and Tasha keep their flights even when I clipped all of the other chicks, because at the time Stormie was weak and was having trouble with his left leg and so needed the advantage of flight in order to get around, and I allowed Tasha to keep hers because she is quite simply a well-behaved bird and has not given me more than a moment's worth of defiance in her life thus far. In fact, I also let her sister Nebula keep her flights as well - right up until the time she went home with her new mommy.

In any case, any bird I release from my aviary goes with a full clip. Period. Full Stop. Just as any new bird I bring into my new, strange-to-them home is potentially fatal to them, so too is any new, strange home dangerous to my chicks once they leave my aviary. Birds need time to acclimate to a new place, and I would rather clip wings and have a bird get used to its surroundings before the new flights come in than send a bird of mine somewhere else and then hear later it killed itself flying headlong into a window or wall.

Even with all that, once I feel that my personal birds have achieved a level of human/lovebird socialization and behave in predictable, orderly patterns, I almost always allow them to become fully flighted and fly unrestricted when they are allowed out-of-cage time. Virtually all of my adult birds are fully flighted, with the exceptions being Zipper (willful when fully flighted and never wants to go back in the cage), Vincent (still working on his socialization challenges), Pixie (who will be allowed to become fully flighted when she molts), Obi and Anna (INCREDIBLY willful since her last clutch!). When a bird becomes compliant - such as Pixie - they are allowed to grow their flights back and fly with the general flock. When they are continually disobidient - like Anna and Zipper - they get their flight priveledges revoked. The whole thing is a continual ebb and flow.

...and then there is the health of the bird to consider. As I mentioned before, I allowed Stormie to keep his flights due to health-related concerns, but I also clipped Obi's wings recently due also to health concerns. In his case, it was because he had/has to wear an Elizabethan Collar because he just cannot stop picking his back - and the big, wide collar catches the air in flight, obstructs Obi's sight to his sides and strikes other objects/birds/whatever when he takes off and/or lands and therefore presents a very real risk to his health and well-being - which makes it necessary to remove his ability to fly unrestricted.

Finally, some might ask me, why even let my birds be flighted at all? Well, I personally believe that with all things being equal, a flighted bird who is allowed to fly daily is a more healthy bird. Birds are MEANT and built to fly; it's what they do. When they ARE flying, they are using all of their major muscle groups, keeping those muscles toned, rather than allowing them to atrophy from non-use or underuse. Some breeders have stated that hens that have full flight ablility are less likely to become egg-bound, as their muscle groups are fit and well-toned and able to expell eggs without difficulty, as opposed to hens that do not fly and that are, as a direct consequence, more at risk for egg-binding due directly to weak muscle groups. Lastly, I believe that birds that DO fly are much happier overall. It HAS to be frustrating for them to know that it is possible for them to fly - if only allowed to have full flights - and yet CANNOT fly no matter how hard they flap and try.

I believe that flighted lovebirds are, as a rule, more fit overall - both physically and emotionally. Having said that, common sense and responsibility on the part of the lovebird owner has got to dominate the whole equation. If I did not have a dedicated aviary room for my birds, I would most assuredly be less inclined to having ANY of my birds fully flighted, due to the risk of losing a bird to an open door, window, cat, air-freshener fumes, pot of boiling water, etc etc etc. With these things kept in mind and understood, however, I think that there is a very real time, place and purpose for fully flighted lovebirds.

Sorry for the novelette; if you just read straight through all of that, go get yourself a cold drink and put your feet up - you deserve it! :rofl:

-Eric

[Mummieeva]

For the molting question. Birds are like humans some lose feathers all year long and some it is by seasons(like people and hair growing). I have two lovebirds. Miss Baggy is almost 2yrs old and had a big molt a few months ago. Whisper is 7 months old and been molting for 2 months. My birds are always having feather come off from fluff to bigger ones.

As for clipping wings like others said it is a personal choice. I will be getting thinking about this question soon also. Baggy and Whisper do not have a wing clip. We had several cats for a while and I did not feel safe. Now we only have one cat and the birds have their own room. Some birds need a clip to stay tame others do not. So far both Whisper and Baggy are tame and fine.So I am leaning towards not clipping them. I guess I did not help answer that much did I.lol.



Steph

[Z28Taxman]

Eric brought up another good point about the boiling water. The rule in my house: when the stove is on Ditto is in the cage.

[Mandolin]

Wow... Thank you everyone for such great advice. This is why i love this forum and hope to be a member for a very long time :D . I think i am going to use a little bit of everyone's advice. Since i have posted before with my concerns about Kameko laying eggs and since ia m terrified of her becoming egg-bound, i am going to let her feathers grow in for a while. I will see how she reacts and if she stays tame and bonded with me and my boyfriend i will allow her to stay fully flighted.
And thank you for the reassurance on the molting. I am just glad her tail feathers are finally coming out since she looks funny with the tips singed :lol . I was concerned because KAmeko did get so sick when she first started molting. I am not sure if the two were related but they happened at the same time so i would assume. That was a scary week full of cuddling for 14 hours straight a few days in a row and lots of antibiotics and LOTS of worries. But she pulled through and if she is going through 'normal' domestic bird molting i am thrilled. Thank you again for all your wonderful advice. It is great to know that new lovie owners have such great support :) :) :)