Plucking, not lovie related

[MaraJade]

I thought I would ask all you bird experts here...

Brief story - I got a new bird. Her name is Tonks and she's a mustache parakeet. I have a Quaker parakeet named Gunther who is in the same room as her.

The day after he first saw her, he started plucking his leg. I know that can't be a coincidence. John took them both to the vet and they said they agreed with my assessment that it was stress related and not disease related (Tonks picked a few of her chest feathers the day she came home with us so we figured stress for both of them.) To be sure about disease they would have had to run tests on both birds that would have been about $200 per bird. We don't have that money.

Vet said to try putting Gunther on pellets (I bought Harrison's - expensive!!) and I bought him a foraging wheel because she said to make him work for his food so that he wouldn't focus on plucking.

he hates the food. I don't even know if he's eating it. She said not to give him ANY old food and to JUST feed him pellets. It's been a few days. I have to assume he's eating SOMEthing.

She said if it gets any worse - take him back and she'll put a collar on him. The vet also said that if he makes himself bleed or something it will cost thousands of dollars to fix him. If I don't have the $400, I definitely don't have thousands!! My only option would be to have him put to sleep or to give him up. :( I can't even fathom that right now.

Does anyone have any advice for me? Should I maybe move the cages across the room from each other? They can only be in that one room so I have few options here. I've been paying a LOT of attention to Gunther and favoring him and taking him out first and spending time with him. I don't know if it's working though... I'm really really worried about him. And Tonks too of course because it looks like she stopped directly plucking but all her feathers are all messy. She is molting, but still. They look like she just took a bath even though she didn't. Plus she's still really scared around us. We've only had for her for a couple weeks so I don't expect her to come around immdiately, but boy, is that beak scary! lol.

Help please...
Should I just go straight there and go with the collar for him? What do I do?

[mjm8321]

Hi Jessie,

First thing I have to comment on is your vet stating
She said not to give him ANY old food and to JUST feed him pellets.

I am sorry but she is crazy in saying something like this. A bird that is not used to eating pellets can drop weight quickly because they don't want to eat them if that's all they are offered. Give Gunther the foods he likes and does eat; make sure he's eating. Where does she figure a pellet diet is going to cure his plucking??? Sounds very odd to me. If you want to offer him pellets too, do so, but if his diet is varied and healthy now, why change it?

The vet could run a test to see if his "bad" bacteria level has risen because of the new arrival...which can spur plucking as well. We just moved two weeks ago, almost all of the birds took it well, except for one, who did have a raised level of bacteria ( a simple poop test told us this) probably due to the stress of the move. A simple course of Baytril injections and he's 150% better.

He's most probably plucking because of Tonks' arrival. Our Quaker like naked legs....he wouldn't touch any other feathers on his body, but had naked legs. :lol
Our vet never recommends a collar unless the bird is mutilating skin. We do have a plucker, Ripley our Senegal, who is in great health, but began plucking in his previous home and the habit has continued...though he is very vulnerable to excessive plucking with any new changes in his environment.
Extra spoiling time with Gunther can't hurt. Even though Quakers are kind of scaredy-cats with new toys, maybe some preening toys? Ours loved his favorite toy http://www.chopperstoys.com/CatalogManipulators.html found on this page, called the "Paulie Weaver". He also loved leather strips and spent hours weaving himself a "nest" of sorts through the cage bars and other toys. Also sticks. Oh how he loved sticks of all sizes to build with too.

Anyway, maybe offer Gunther some extra baths too, since Quakers love water so much. It might just be a temporary thing (his plucking) until he is used to the new addition.
Since you can't move her out of the room where he is, perhaps try moving her cage location within the room , somewhere it suits him better. Unfortunately there isn't any magic cure I can offer, just keep trying new things to distract him.

One last comment (I know, you'll be glad when I'm done yakking), you might consider a second opinion from another avian vet. We use two avian only vets here and neither would ever suggest changing to an all pellet diet, let alone "cold turkey". Many vets are concerned with Quakers eating too many sunflower seeds, as they are very prone to Fatty Liver Disease, however, with a varied diet, plenty of exercise and playtime, sunflower seeds can be offered.
Good luck!

[MaraJade]

I am sorry but she is crazy in saying something like this. A bird that is not used to eating pellets can drop weight quickly because they don't want to eat them if that's all they are offered. Give Gunther the foods he likes and does eat; make sure he's eating. Where does she figure a pellet diet is going to cure his plucking??? Sounds very odd to me. If you want to offer him pellets too, do so, but if his diet is varied and healthy now, why change it?
Yea, I know they worry about the fatty liver, as you stated later. He is on a seed only diet and then he gets treats like veggies, fruits, and nuts from us when we are eating stuff. Does that constitute as healthy? I would hope so. lol.
I thought it was crazy to go cold turkey too. And just hearing someone else (you) say that as well made me just put some of his old food into his foraging wheel as well. Gunther looked happy.

As for your other suggestions, I will wait on the poop test and the collar for now. I do not want to have to use the collar. I think the vet was just trying to help us PREVENT having to spend the thousands of dollars. She is a world-renowned vet and John said she just about cried when she saw Gunther was plucking cuz she loves birds so I don't doubt her intentions. It just seemed odd to me about the food thing.

I will check out that site for the toys. I know quakers love weaving. Maybe that would be fun for him.

This weekend I will tackle the great living room reorganization to see where else I could put Tonks' cage.

Thank you so much for all your suggestions! They made me feel a bit better. I am just so upset right now... with Gunther, with myself. I keep thinking if I had just left Tonks alone Gunther would be fine right now. It's not like she wouldn't have found another home (her owner was moving). ::sigh:: But I know thinking like that won't help anything.

I will just try any suggestions that you experts can offer. ;) Thanks again!

[graushill]

I have heard vets that recommend all pellet diets, but cold turkey? That just sounds wrong. You could try giving him pellets first thing in the morning, when most birds are hungriest, maybe softened with a little apple juice or water, if he's used to juicier foods. After that I would say let him get his regular food. I don't think all pellet diets are specially good, but I guess you could try working your way up from offering pellets in the morning, to doing it a couple of times a day. I do think though it's preferable for them to get more variety, it must be so boring to eat those dry pellet like substances every day.

I'm not sure if Tonks and Gunther are near each other, and while the plucking could be stress related, did the vet check Gunther's skin under a lamp? Could it possibly be mites? I'm wondering since you say Tonks feathers are also not looking their best. It's just an idea, and please feel free to reject it if you think it's not possible.

As for the plucking, constant bathing works wonders :). I use aloe vera, both sprayed on with warm water a couple of times a week and rubbed on my little plucker's bald patches a couple of nights a week to prevent drying and I do think it works. Sunlight is great too, I think there's something soothing about sitting lazily in the sun that helps a lot with plucking. Foraging is a great idea, but ultimately anything that keeps them busy and occupied with other things besides their feathers is a great help, so leather strips, piñatas, sticks those kinds of things are great to give to little pluckers.

In any case, my heart goes out to you,I know it's a difficult situation to live through. I would also like to tell you that not all pluckers end up mutilating, and that not all pluckers are sad so please don't give up hope, and please don't think that it will necessarily end with you having to put Gunther to sleep. I hope that Gunther's plucking is due to stress and that he will soon be back to normal.

Hugs,
Gloria

ETA: Sorry Jessie, I hadn't read your reply. I definitely don't think I know more than a vet, God knows that's not the case, and I hope it doesn't come out that way but it does sound a bit strange that she would say to do it all of a sudden, as birds can be notoriously finicky about trying new foods.

[mjm8321]

Jessie,
There's nothing more comforting to know, than someone else has dealt with and/or can understand what you are going through. I've learned that quickly and am glad I found somewhere (like here) I can ask questions and get feedback.
The fatty liver disease I think is a little overblown...primarily because Quakers adore to eat (that's an understatement LOL) and I'm sure there are many owners out there that will feed them anything and everything. Once they begin eating everything and stop being active, they put on weight, get lazy, etc... For Quakers, having even partial flight is good too as it is also very good to helping to keep the liver healthy. Our Quaker was on a seed, fruit, veggie (pastas, rice, egg....anything you offered him) diet. We did try offering him pellets and he'd eat one or two (literally) a day. He was in perfect health. He also adored sunflowers...which was part of his seed mix.

Just keep trying different things and keep the faith. ;)

As for Tonks, a big beak can be quite intimidating. Even a smaller strong beak can be LOL! Give her a little time, but someone is going to have to take the first step...and Jessie, it's probably going to have to be you...hahaha! Just get her out of that cage, take one for the team (bite that is) and as long as it doesn't require stitches...you'll be used to those bites in no time! :lol If you can, try sitting by her cage, talk to her...or my personal favorite...eat sitting near her cage...leave the door open for her. She might very well open right up for a bite of whatever you've got. It might take some time too...for both of you. It's taken months for me to even scratch Ripley's head outside of his cage without him trying to bite. He landed on me the other night after being startled and did NOT try to bite me. Five months he and Ive been working on trust...it's working, I've just got to let him have his space and do what he's comfortable with.
I really hope and think things will work out fine for you, Gunther and the "big beak" Tonks!

[MaraJade]

Gloria and MJ, Please don't think that by my saying the vet is world renowned that I was putting down your opinions. Far from it. I was just saying that so you would know why I listened to her about the "cold turkey" thing despite my misgivings. I appreciate any help that you all can offer me. :D

The aloe is something I didn't think to try because they always say not to put anything on birds. But I guess since aloe is natural it can't be a bad thing.

That's it - I have GOT to get hime some weaving toys. Sounds like a great idea. We're also trying to work on tricks with him that we are learning from Bird Talk. We thought maybe some practice of talking and tricks would occupy him as well.

With Tonks - she is warming up much more quickly to John. Which is good since we got her for him. He sits and talks with her, lets her drink his water and eat his crackers. So cute. But she is very intimidating to him as well. We will just continue working with her and be patient. :)

Gunther could pluck himself bald and I will still love him. I know it doesn't necessarily mean he is sad. Thank you for the reassurance. I just don't want him to mutilate and us have to make a difficult decision about how to handle it. If he plucks himself bald and that's just how he is and he's a happy little birdy then that's fine. lol. I want him to be healthy and happy, though.

Thank you for the suggestions. Keep 'em coming if you think of any more. I don't know what I'd do without this board. I was on the verge of tears today. Thank you, thank you, thank you. :grouphug:

[mjm8321]

With Tonks - she is warming up much more quickly to John. Which is good since we got her for him. He sits and talks with her, lets her drink his water and eat his crackers. So cute. But she is very intimidating to him as well Hahahahaaaaa! typical bird! Remember if they are up higher than eye level, they think they are the top bird...so you (and John) might want to work with her where your heads are above hers....so you are top bird!
Here' s link to a company in Massachusetts that has veggie tanned leather...great for birds and Gunther might like the laces to weave with, our Quaker did!!!!
http://www.twinleather.com/birdtoys/index.html

I certainly didn't take it that you were dismissing anyone's advice because your vet is well known....I'm happy to add my two cents anywhere! LOL

Give Gunther a kiss from me ( I adore Quakers) and ....well....blow a kiss to Tonks too. ;)

[Janie]

Jessie, did you do any kind of quarantine with these birds? When you brought Tonks in? Did Tonks have a complete vet check after you got him and 30 days before he exposed himself to the rest of your flock?

I am very sorry you are having problems with Gunter, I really am and hope there is a solution.

[butterfly1061]

Brief story - I got a new bird. Her name is Tonks and she's a mustache parakeet. I have a Quaker parakeet named Gunther who is in the same room as her.

If Tonks was placed in the same room with Gunter without a quarantine period, it sounds like Gunter is quite upset that another bird was placed in "his" room and invading "his" territory. I can see why he is probably stressed out and plucking. When my birds were new to my home I made sure I quarantined them and this gave them a chance to call back and forth to each other before being placed in the same room and invading territories. At least with the calling back and forth they have a chance to know another bird is in the house and can communicate before actually meeting the invader.

[jknezek]

Several things about this post. One... pellets cause more plucking problems than they prevent. A vet recommending an all pellet diet is a vet who has not kept up with current theory on bird nutrition. My birds all go to Dr. Harrison's old practice (yes, Dr. Harrison of Harrison's pellets). The vet that took over his practice, while a seller of Harrison's pellets as part of a complete diet, is the first to admit that it is not, in and of itself, a complete diet for birds. They need fresh live food as well.

For good information on plucking and diets, join the Feeding Feathers chat on Yahoo. They have a complete diet of fresh foods that has helped many birds stop plucking over time. Assuming, of course, that the plucking is food related.

In this case, the plucking does not seem to be food related. So putting the bird on a new diet is probably not the solution. What a strange suggestion...

There is a theory that was researched by the big bird rescue in Tuscon on plucking when combining birds from different areas of the world. They studied the affect on African Greys when a macaw was added to the grey's environment. They also studied adding a bird from Africa, such as lovebirds, to a grey's environment. The study suggests that adding a new world bird to an old world bird caused the original bird to begin plucking in better than 60% of the cases. Adding two old world birds, or two new world birds together, only caused plucking to begin in 30% of cases.

I would have to look up the study to recheck how or if they eliminated variables like size and noise (I don't believe they did) but it seemed that there was a strong correlation between adding birds from different regions of the world and an onset of plucking. Of course, many of us have birds from different regions and have no problems (I have an ekkie from the South Pacific and LBs from Africa). I mention it only as a possibility worth researching.

I believe Mustache parakeets are generally found in the Indonesian area and Quakers are originally native to South America. So you may be seeing a fear reaction related to the information in the study.

Or it could just be stress related. Plucking is such a difficult topic because we know so much and yet understand so little about the triggers. If it is stress related, the stress is caused by the new bird and either the original bird will get over it, or the plucking will become systematic. Once plucking is established, it becomes habitual and is infinitely harder to stop. You might want to separate these birds sooner rather than later if the plucking continues.

Finally, the question of quarantine. Hopefully both birds are healthy but plucking is also symptomatic of illness. Kind of like irritability in humans. If you can't afford to check the health of the birds, there is no way to eliminate this possibility.

So, I guess my point in all this is there are at least 3 obvious possibilities that I can immediately come up with. The vet's advice really didn't address any of them, which is odd.

1) Stress from a new bird. 2) Stress from an unfamiliar species (odor, sound, color, movement... who knows what could be bothering your quaker) 3) Illness

Fortunately, all three of these are testable. The first two by temporarily removing the stimulus, the third with wellness tests.

Changing the food, adding a collar, putting aloe on the affected area... these attempt to address the symptoms, not the cause. That is always the least effective way to treat a problem.

Good luck!

[graushill]

Hej Jessie,

I didn't think either that you were being dismissive with people's advice :). I was just admiting to my own lack of knowledge, and definitely only speaking for myself, not anyone else. I don't have a lot of experience with birds having only had a few species, I've never been a breeder, and I never studied them formally. Like Jeremy said, all of what I wrote in my post adresses unly the symptoms of plucking, not the cause, and they are definitely not cures, something I maybe should have mentioned myself. In any case, that's the great thing about this board, there's always someone willing to help :).

Hugs,
Gloria

[MaraJade]

There were so many helpful replies and suggestions and questions that you'll have to forgive me if I don't reply to them all.

MJ- that's a great suggestion about being the "top bird" and being higher than them. I do try to incorporate that whenever I pick up any of my birds. Some days it works, some days it makes them mad. lol. Birds....
Thanks for the link too. Weaving toys seem like a really good idea for Gunther.

Janie - we did quarantine but only for 2 weeks. What happened was Tonks came to us in a REALLY small cage. We wanted to fix that but until we did there was room in our bedroom for her. Once we got her huge cage there wasn't any room. We couldn't put her in the spare room because that's where the lovies are. And if we put Gunther in with the lovies they scream all day and make the neighbors mad. So our only option was to put her big cage in the living room. The cage she was in was really small and I felt uncomfortable leaving her in any longer than I had to. Maybe that does not completely justify it, but I felt it was the right choice for us to make at the time.

Jackie - your question was kind of the same. They did call to each other for a couple weeks and Gunther seemed okay with it. No excessive screaming. So I was not worried about moving Tonks' cage. Gunther has adjusted to all the lovies that have been in and out of this house very well and he also used to live right next to my ex huband's african grey and lorikeet. He's had changes in his life before and not gotten upset to the point of plucking so I thought this would be no different. Guess I underestimated the stress.

Jknezek - The yahoo group looks interesting and I will have to check it out. I don't know why the vet decided pellets were the magic cure. I told my fiancee, who is the one who actually took the birds to the vet since I was working, that the two bird vets I've been to have tried to get me to switch to pellets since they sell them at the vet office. Harrison's is really expensive too.

Not that I think they are soley motivated by money, but honestly, Gunther wasn't overweight. He was clearly plucking because of a new bird. Why didn't she give us any of the suggestions that all of you have given us? You've been 10 times more helpful.

Also, I do want to reitterate that if I had a suspicion at all that this was due to illness I would just cough up the money for the bloodtests (non-existant money, but we would find a way). However, Gunther started plucking after he just SAW Tonks crossing the room one day. It was one or two days before we moved her cage. So there was no chance for them to spread mites or some disease to one another at that point. It seems that he is just a ticked off little quaker. Now I ahve to find ways to get him to be un-ticked off because Tonks is obviously the cause. Not diet.

Thanks for pointing this out to me. I really do appreciate all the great advice.

[jknezek]

Good luck MaraJade. Plucking is such a problem in captive birds. I know it is something that comes up every day on my eclectus list and also consistently on the Feeding Feathers chat.

Sometimes it feels like nothing is ever easy... Especially since you did do some quarantine so your quaker couldn't have been startled that another bird was in the house. Guess he just doesn't like it. Maybe he'll adjust.

I don't think the Feeding Feather's chat will help since this doesn't seem to be food related, but it is a very good group regardless.

One thing you might try is just giving a little chamomile (I think I just butchered the spelling, sorry) tea. It is supposedly very calming. So if your quaker is just feeling a little high strung because of the addition, this might help.

Uggh... Plucking. Don't I wish we knew more...

Jeremy