Colours!

[Emery]

I'm confused about the colours of lovies. There's such thing as a Peach face and a White face, but what do you call a lovie that has a grey face/bib?

[mjm8321]

I've had some juvenile WF, seagreen and Dutch Blue chicks that have a greyish bib and head until they get their adult coloring.

[LauraO]

The peachface lovebird is the species of lovebirds like Masked is another. The different colors are called mutations, which include white face, dutch blue, lutino, etc.

[Jezz]

A red face indicates a green series Peachface Lovebird
A white face indicates a blue series Peachface Lovebird

A bird with a white/grey face is a blue series peachface lovebird. There are 3 primary mutations in the blue series, they are Turquoise (Whiteface Blue), Aqua (Dutch Blue), and AquaTurqouise (Seagreen). Their faces are all generally the same when young but after their first moult, you will not an increasing change

[Angelwing]

There are also orangeface lovebirds (green series bird) that has an orange face, instead of the regular reddish coloured face. Orangeface and whiteface are just mutations. The species is called Peachface.

[Paulette]

A red face indicates a green series Peachface Lovebird
A white face indicates a blue series Peachface Lovebird

A bird with a white/grey face is a blue series peachface lovebird. There are 3 primary mutations in the blue series, they are Turquoise (Whiteface Blue), Aqua (Dutch Blue), and AquaTurqouise (Seagreen). Their faces are all generally the same when young but after their first moult, you will not an increasing change

Emery....I'm so glad you asked this very question....I now have WF, Dutch Blue and Normal Green Peach Face.

Jeremy?.....then would it hold true that the Dutch Blue and the Seagreen are typical of having the apricot brow (one dutch blue parent + one WF parent). And of course it takes 2 white face parents to make white face offspring.

[Rubygem]

?.....then would it hold true that the Dutch Blue and the Seagreen are typical of having the apricot brow (one dutch blue parent + one WF parent). And of course it takes 2 white face parents to make white face offspring.

You almost got this one …. You do not have to have 2 white face parents to make white face off spring. You can have one Seagreen and a split to white face parent too. And there are other combinations. :) The Dutch Blues have more of an orange brow (forehead) and the Whiteface has a creamy color brow (forehead), with the Seagreen having colors anywhere between the two, since it takes a Dutch Blue chromosome and a White face chromosome in order to get the seagreen.

Rubygem

[Janie]

Rubygem, where in the world have you been? :D :D :D :D

[Rubygem]

Ummmm Errrrrr Well :blush:
I've been busy with baby birdies, and helping People that have bought some of my birdies in the past, clip wings and such ;)
I'm still up to my eye balls keeping busy, as my flock has grown a lot since I use to live on the forum...LOL :roll: :whistle:
I've moved into the eye ring group of lovies...and I'm really enjoying having all the new added flock members..while waiting on yet another 8 pair of Black Cheeks that will be flying in this Saturday Morning. :rofl: :omg: :rofl:

I've been trying to play catch up here, but boy does this board stay busy.:p

It's great seeing everyone, <waving to everyone>

But Janie you know that you have kept me locked in your basement, because you haven't been known to be good with Shareing..:eek: oops I forgot I wasn't suppose to mention that.:cool:
Rubygem

[Paulette]

?.....then would it hold true that the Dutch Blue and the Seagreen are typical of having the apricot brow (one dutch blue parent + one WF parent). And of course it takes 2 white face parents to make white face offspring.

You almost got this one …. You do not have to have 2 white face parents to make white face off spring. You can have one Seagreen and a split to white face parent too. And there are other combinations. :) The Dutch Blues have more of an orange brow (forehead) and the Whiteface has a creamy color brow (forehead), with the Seagreen having colors anywhere between the two, since it takes a Dutch Blue chromosome and a White face chromosome in order to get the seagreen.

Rubygem

Here we go with the nomenclatures....I just figured out through another post that Aqua and Dutch Blue are the same thing.

Ok.....so that's how I got a WF Turquoise from a WF ?Turquoise(Jake) and an Aqua Pied very faint peach brow(Hope) with 1 WF factor. I guess Dutch Blue Pied and Aqua Pied are the exact same thing? (a bird that looks like they fell into a tub of pineapple, lime and orange sherbert)

Ok. So then Any Blue Series bird paired with a full WF bird? will give WF offspring.
That could be a Mauve aka Slate, a Blue Pied, we already said Seagreen, any Blue American Cinnamon, Blue American Yellow aka Edged Dilute aka Silver, Blue Lutino aka Creamino, ?Blue Aussie Cinnamon(is it WF).....etc.

So, I guess my next goofy question is can you get WF offspring from 2 say dutch blues or does one of the WF factors have to be a pure WF?

Define for me what is the difference in Aqua aka Dutch Blue and Torquoise visually? I think my new bird Jewell must be Dutch Blue she is going to have a very dark brow. So is Torquoise's body mor of a teal visually? I got all the face characteristics....it's the body that confuses me.

[Jezz]

Ok this is getting really confusing and we are going way off track.

Paulette when you say WF are you talking about a bird that has a White face (aka any blue series bird) or do you mean WF Blue (aka Turquoise)??

WF Blue = Turquoise = Very white face, creamy brow
Dutch Blue = Aqua = Creamy white face, dark orange brow
Seagreen = AquaTurquoise = white face, orange brow

All Parblue mutations are Recessive (except combined with blue when they become dominant, however, there is no blue mutation in Peachies so we need'nt worry about that).
To get a Parblue mutation (Turquoise, Aqua, AquaTurquoise aka any mutation that has a white face, both parents must be carrying the parblue gene.
A bird cannot be split AquaTurquoise as it is a combination of two genes found on the same chromosome.

Aqua x Aqua
=100% Aqua Cocks and Hens

To get Turquoise you must combine 2 AquaTurquoise, AquaTurquoise x Turquoise, or 2 Turquoise.

[Rubygem]

To get Turquoise you must combine 2 AquaTurquoise, AquaTurquoise x Turquoise, or 2 Turquoise.

you can also combine a Green series bird that is split to Turquoise, with either a Turquoise or a AquaTurquoise, because you just have to be able to have a Turquoise gene on both Chromosomes.

Ok.....so that's how I got a WF Turquoise

Paulette,

You would never say WF Turquoise; because this is the same thing as saying I have a Whiteface Whiteface.

If you have a Turquoise (wf) bird and an Aqua (dutch blue) Bird then there is no way in the world that you can get Turquoise (wf) or Aqua (dutch blue) Offspring, because one chromosome from each parent would only produce AquaTurquoise offspring.

Aqua Pied very faint peach brow(Hope) with 1 WF factor.

You can’t have an Aqua Bird with 1 WF factor…this is called Seagreen (AquaTurquoise)

Ok. So then Any Blue Series bird paired with a full WF bird? will give WF offspring.

No, In order to get a wf (Turquoise) you have to have the wf gene on both chromosomes.

The three Par-blues in Peachface lovebirds – would be the Aqua (aka dutch blue), AquaTurquoise (aka Seagreen) and the Turquoise (aka white face). Now that we have the three base colors; any other color mutations mixed into the combination would make that color mutation plus one of the par-blue nomenclature. Example: Cinnamon Violet Turquoise (American Cinnamon Violet Whiteface). Seagreen pied ( AquaTurquoise Pied, a bird that is pied and is in the par-blue color category.) Cobalt Dutch Blue (D Aqua – A single dark factor dutch blue)

So, I guess my next goofy question is can you get WF offspring from 2 say dutch blues or does one of the WF factors have to be a pure WF?

NO. You have to be able to get a WF chromosome from both parents. And this gene can be on the X or the Y chromosome. (it’s really the W or the Z chromosome in birds, but to make it simpler, I use the same chromosome as we have in people) Birds also are the opposite with which chromosome the male and females have in humans….to have a human boy you have to have the XY chromosome, while the human girls have XX….but in birds it is the girls that have the XY while the boys have the XX. That is why the male birds carry the sex linked genes in birds….the sex linked chromosome has to be on the X gene. The Par-blue genes can be on the X chromosome or the Y chromosome.

Define for me what is the difference in Aqua aka Dutch Blue and Turquoise visually?

WF Blue = Turquoise = Very white face, creamy brow
Dutch Blue = Aqua = Creamy white face, dark orange brow
Seagreen = AquaTurquoise = white face, orange brow


WF Blue = Turquoise = will have a pinkish beak
Dutch Blue = Aqua = A horn color beak
Seagreen = AquaTurquoise = Pinkish color on top of beak, and horn color on bottom part of the beak

You can not always count on the brow being very creamy on all Turquoise birds (wf) because not all the birds are bred from good stock. The creamier the brow on a Turquiose the better quality the bird (IMO). You need to also remember that the coloration of the body changes with any combination of the color mutations added into the mix. You have to look at the over all picture of the bird, in order to understand which of the par-blue you have. 

Rubygem

[Paulette]

When I say WF....I'm talking the Whole Face & Bib included = (2 WF genes). I have Violet a WF (Pure White on the Whole Face and Bib there is a bit of grey on the sides where the white meets the medium blue) Jeremy already defined him: WF Cobalt (1 dark factor) Blue Violet(1 violet factor).
Then I also have Jake whom I think is Turquiose (Mostly light face and bib with creamy sometimes beigy brow sometimes lighter outlined with gray, but never pure white).

I recently understand that Seagreen or Any ParBlue including Creamino....all lovebirds with apricot brow are also considered WF (only 1 white face gene). I guess I have to start thinking of ParBlue as WF and now I see why it is difficult to get an answer due to my own confusion or misunderstanding of WF.

I have your definitions of Aqua, Seagreen and Turquiose = definitions for the faces of each, beak of each. My confusion is in the body color...the difference between Aqua and Turquoise visually.

Is it more important to look at the clues in the FACE? for identification of the mutation. Because that definately tell me Jake is Turquiose.....what I was calling WF Turquoise (a white face white face) which is the wrong terminology....sorry. So then Jake being Turquiose....Hope would have to be a Seagreen Pied she does have 1 violet factor ..... (I saw some pictures on a site that look just like her called Dark Aqua Pied)...I got 4 babies that look like her and 2 that were blue....one baby that looks just like Jake (I kept him) and sold the other blue one it was lighter than a turquoise. Or Hope has some green genes....which account for the yellow on her Head behind her faint peach brow, her pied babies were white in the pied areas(body not head)....a couple have yellow on the back of the head behind the brow.

So basically for a regular ParBlue without any dark factors...
What I want to know is what you see Visually...
Aqua is light blue(but a normal rump is light blue) is aqua a darker shade of a normal rump? aka Dutch Blue so it's an odd blue not a true blue.
Seagreen is more green than aqua? (I have a couple of Seagreens) so I know what that is....aka Apple Green.
Turquoise is darker and more of a teal?

Or....Again....I....need to concentrate on the Face for identification of the Mutation.....then......I....need to look at the body and the rump for dark factors and violet factors? and not worry about what Aqua and Turquoise Really looks like.

Am I even close?
FYI....I'm asking for that book(by Dirk Van den Albeele) for Mother's Day....regardless.

[Jezz]

I just look at the brow and body colour.
I made up a quick album showing the difference in brow and body colouring. Some birds have dark or violet factors so the brow and body colouring change. Maybe someone who has Aqua, Turquoise, and AquaTurquoise without any dark or violet factors could show you some pics.

The brow gets darker when there are dark or violet factors present, an AquaTurquoise will appear like an Aqua going by the colour of the brow. So it is important to be able to tell the different in body colour.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2107620917

[Paulette]

I just look at the brow and body colour.
I made up a quick album showing the difference in brow and body colouring. Some birds have dark or violet factors so the brow and body colouring change. Maybe someone who has Aqua, Turquoise, and AquaTurquoise without any dark or violet factors could show you some pics.

The brow gets darker when there are dark or violet factors present, an AquaTurquoise will appear like an Aqua going by the colour of the brow. So it is important to be able to tell the different in body colour.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2107620917

Ok....I see what you mean by the similarity between AquaTurquoise and Aqua when there are dark/violet factors involved. I think this is exactly my problem in understanding the body colors of the ParBlues. Every bird I have either has violet factors or dark factors except for my Inos and my heavily pied green and out of those 3 only one has the normal blue rump which I'd never seen in person before either.

Also in some of your pics I had to look at the beak....because the body made me think some were Seagreens aka AquaTurquoise, but after looking at the beaks then I could tell they were Dutch Blues aka Aquas. Very tricky stuff....these genetics.....unless you know the nomenclatures and the tell tail signs of the: Brow, Beak, violet, dark, pied, green or blue series, and dare I even say... the sex linked genes (which I'm afraid is going to be a whole other Ball Game) and the curve balls! :blush:

As always.....You Are The Man! Thanks for clarifying this for me so I can put the ParBlues to rest ;) and move on.

[mangotiki]

Paulette, as I understand it,

you have dutch blue aka aqua (melon colored brow) (2 aqua alleles)

then you have wf blue aka turquoise (white face and brow) (2 turquiose allele)

and then there is the seagreen aka aqua turqoise, which is a combination of the above, and looks similar to the aqua but has a two-tone beak. (1 aqua, 1 turquoise allele). It is not a basic color but a combination that has its own name.

Then there is also green (2 green alleles or 1 green + one blue, which will be shown as green/blue, aka green split to blue. A green bird can aslo be green/wf blue, aka green/ turquoise).

Green is dominant, all the blues are recessive. In its simplest terms, all birds carry two alleles for color. If even one gene is a green, the bird will look green. IF both alleles are blue, the bird will be blue. What kind of blue depends on the alleles. aqua and turquoise are sort of equal, which means that one will not over ride the other, as green would. They share, both affecting the color of the bird, resulting in seagreen aka aquaturquoise.

For a bird to inherit two of the same color alleles, it must receive one from the mother and one from the father. A bird cannot recieve two of the same alleles from one parent. Each parent will only pass on one allele. That is why it takes two to tango. The egg cell and the sperm cell each carry only 1/2 the info needed to make a whole bird. We are all made up of equal parts of info from each parent.

Once you have established which basic color you have, you can then go in and add certain alleles which affect different parts of the coloring of the feathers: ino, cinnamon (american cinnamon), pallid ( aka lime, aka australian cinnamon), dark eyed clear (aka australian yellow??). These change the feather coloring and are inherited in different ways. Ino, pallid and cinnamon are sex-linked. I am not sure about DEC and silver.

Sex linked simply means that the information is found on the X chromosome. It is the X and y that carry the sex characteristics. A male bird is XX and a female is XY. A female always gets an X from dad, and an X (resulting in male offspring) or a Y (resulting in female) from mom. if ino can only occur on the X, then a male (XX) must get TWO ino alleles to look ino, because if he only gets ONE, the info on the other X will over ride the ino info on the first X. A female (XY) must get ino from dad, because ino is only on the X, not the Y. So she only needs one ino allele to look ino because there is no other info on another X to interfere. If you want a male ino, then the bird must get an X-ino from dad and an X-ino from mom. Dad must either be ino or be split to ino, and mom must be a visual ino to produce male ino offspring.

Then there are other factors that can affect the look of the bird, on top of the previous effects. There is edge dilute aka silver (i think there are a few other names as well), which is recessive, meaning a bird must carry two of these genes to show silver. Then Pied is dominant, meaning only one gene is necessary for the bird to look pied. Then there is violet and dark factors, which are co-dominant. A bird can carry one or two of these, and the intensity of the effect will depend on whether the bird has one or two factors. There is also orange face. A bird must have two of factors to be orange face. I have heard that one of factor will slightly affect the coloring but I am not sure.

You could have an aqua turquoise dark cinnamon violet pied. This bird would carry aqua, turquiose, 2 dark factors, one cinnamon for a female and two cinnamons for a male, and either one or two pied genes. the dark, violet and the pied genes would not show, except on the tail, because the cinnamon gene removes the color from the feathers that is normally effected by pied and dark factors.

I tried to explain this in a nutshell, I hope I did not muddy the waters. Once you have the basic colors straight, and then understnad how the other genes affect the coloring of the birds, it is just a matter of learning all the different terminology as there is about 5 names for every combination of mutations:eek: it seems.

Traci

[Paulette]

Ok....great detailed information.....thank you.....I am so visual that the scientific part just overwhelms me and gives me a mental block. Then my overly creative mind just keeps sparking and being curious....what if this....what if that. I have printed so much information to refer to, but as you said knowing the 5 different terms for each mutation that mean the same thing is half the battle and everyone has their favorite terms. I do understand Blue verses Green and the dominance of Green. I keep having to make notes for myself on everything for quicker reference. And now if I have trouble identifying somebirdie I can look at the beak for a better clue and the feet. It's been impossible to know the background of any bird I have purchased considering people don't even know what they have. 9 times out of 10 they will tell me the bird is one sex and it's totally the opposite. My own misunderstanding haven't helped either. I joined the local bird club hoping to meet some people with indepth knowledge of the genetics, and while they are a great close knit group of people they seem to have more experience in other species of birds, not so much in the genetics of lovebirds.

I have printed something called "Revised List of Gene Symbols for Agapornis roseicollis (seventh edition)...it has whether ea mutation is recessive, dominant, incomplete dominant, sex linked....etc. I was going to ask if the genetic symbols are the alleles, but I see on the back.....the alleles refer to color: turquoise, aqua, pastel, dec and pallid....and you listed others as well. I guess I'm trying to make it harder than it is.:whistle:

Thanks for taking the time to help me understand better.:cool: