I'M SO EXCITED!!1!one!

[Keltoth]

So - some of you might remember at the end of last summer when I first got Vincent (http://www.xmission.com/~zemik/index_files/image1190.jpg) and how they told me he was a sex-linked female Cobalt Violet Pied American Cinnamon Whitefaced Blue (whew). If you do, you will recall how disgusted I was when I had him DNA tested and found he was a male (having tested him because I sure as heck could not see any plum-colored eyes with the bird), and how I began to doubt that he was even American Cinnamon because when he molted out his tan flight feathers, they came in pure white with no hint of tan.

Remember, old timers? I sure hope you do! :happy:

Nalo and Vincent hatched their first chick early this morning. THE BABE HAS PLUM EYES! The sibling that hatched this afternoon has normal eyes. Understand that it is hard to see the Cinnamon in Vincent, especially without those tan flights. This could be due to his piedness, but the fact that this little girl has Plum eyes tells me that Vincent is at least SPLIT for Cinnamon, if not full Cinnamon.

Now, seeing as how the lady we bought him from stated unequivicolly that Vince was a female bird, I have a theory as to what happened, but everything is not gelling as it should. I am thinking that Vincent's dad was a full Cinnamon, and that the woman simply confused two different chicks when she moved them to different cages after weening. The thing is, Vincent had those tan flights - but I still do not think he has plum eyes. To me, they look as dark as any of my other non-Cinnamon eyes. Maybe seeing Aeyu's red Ino-eyes day after day is coloring my perception (haha - I made a pun!), but if he had tan flights from being a visual Cinnamon, he should also have plum eyes; the two go hand-in-hand. Stated another way, if he is only split for Cinnamon, he wouldn't have plum-colored eyes - but niether should he have tan-colored flights.

Now, I am so full of self-doubt that a 3rd possibility has entered my mind, which is that maybe this chick is, in reality, an Ino chick and that I am mistaking plum-colored eyes for red Ino-eyes. However, I have been told that Ino eyes in a newly-hatched chick are clear, so that it looks like the chick has no eyes at all. Is this correct? I hope so, because these eyes are definately purpleish in color.

Anyway, assuming the chick is not an Ino, I am feeling a little better about the people I got Vincent from because if could have been just a simple mistake in bringing out the wrong young bird. I will feel MUCH better if this lovie feathers out and proves definatively that she is an American Cinnamon, and not an Australian Cinnamon.

Pictures soon, of course!

-Eric

[Janie]

Eric, CONGRATULATIONS! I have no idea what you're talking about but I know it's all good and something you wanted so I'm glad you got it! :D

[linda040899]

Eric,
Congratulations on the plum eyed chick! I took another look at Vincent and I'm truly thinking that he's split for cinnamon, which would make the baby a female. Post a photo of the chick. You can definitely see plum eyes before they open. There's a difference between cinnamon and ino.

[mjm8321]

Congrats Eric! New life in the aviary is always exciting! I haven't had any cinnamons hatch yet, but I have had plenty of inos and you'll know if you have one of those, because indeed, looks like they have no eyes at all under those little lids. The plum eyes, from what I'm seeing in my flock, are less noticeable as they get older. I've got that younger WF Pallid that I can still see the plum color and the older hen that arrived yesterday, you'd think she had dark eyes as you can't really see it. Vincent kind of reminds me of my bird Spot, who is a WF Blue Pied (who came from Sylvia) and apparently is split for pallid as he has thrown many hens over the past years.

Can't wait for pics!!!

[Keltoth]

Eric,
Congratulations on the plum eyed chick! I took another look at Vincent and I'm truly thinking that he's split for cinnamon, which would make the baby a female. Post a photo of the chick. You can definitely see plum eyes before they open. There's a difference between cinnamon and ino.

Yup yup, I think he is as well, but I have no practical knowledge with adult plum-eyed lovebirds to back that up. Even so, if we were, for the sake of argument, to say that Vincent is a full Am. Cinn., the plum-eyed hatchling would still be a female because we have full disclosure of Nalo's background. She's a visual Opaline and NOT a visual Cinnamon, so any plum-eyed chicks from her would HAVE to be female because it could only come from the father bird, thus only having one sex-linked allele and not two, and females only have one sex-linked allele at a time (as opposed to visual males, who have two - one from each parent), and as a consequence female lovebirds are either visual for that particular sex-linked mutation or do not possess the sex-linked allele at all (...but of course, you already know that - I'm just giddy and showing off for Janie :P ).

I am uploading the new pics to the website as I type this; I'll post links in the photo section when the transfer is completed.

[Jezz]

Vincent is definitely not a Cinnamon. But he is definitely Split Cinnamon or Pallid. You will have to wait until the feathers come in to determine that one.

The brown on Vincent's wings look more like dirt to me, and a Cinnamon does not have Brown wings, they have more of a darkish grey/mauve sort of colour.

[Keltoth]

Vincent is definitely not a Cinnamon. But he is definitely Split Cinnamon or Pallid. You will have to wait until the feathers come in to determine that one.

The brown on Vincent's wings look more like dirt to me, and a Cinnamon does not have Brown wings, they have more of a darkish grey/mauve sort of colour.

Now, see - that is what I thought as well, but this lady kept going on and on about how the Pied was hiding the Cinnamon coloring, but that you could still see it in "her" tan-colored flights. When I said the eyes did not look plum colored to me, she told me that they darken in adult birds and sometimes even people with alot of experience in American Cinnamons can miss the eyes in older birds. >: To me, the color on those flights looks more like Vincent was kept in a damp, rusty cage and the rust came off as he flapped his wings up against the bars. I have nothing else to back that up, as his cage when I picked him up was of stainless steel construction and immaculately clean (almost TOO clean, if you know what I mean).

Yah, I think she saw me coming a mile away. Frankly, I won't be surprised if this chick turns out to be Pallid, rather than AmCinn. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I LOATHE dishonest breeders...

...but the chick is still cute. :happy:

Thanks for the input, Jeremy!

[linda040899]

Yah, I think she saw me coming a mile away. Frankly, I won't be surprised if this chick turns out to be Pallid, rather than AmCinn. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I LOATHE dishonest breeders...
Yes, and Yes!!! Either she saw you coming a mile away or she was clueless about lovebird genetics! I can remember looking for a breeder age budgie as a companion for my daughter's budgie hen. A local breeder told me he was getting some adults later in the day so I opted to stop by to pick up a male. When I got there, he had a male blue budgie in a cage and he told me the bird was about a yr old. Since he didn't know my level of expertise with birds, he figured I would take the bird without comment. Well, I asked him how he intended to explain the lines on the bird's head that went from behind the cere all the way to the nape of the neck. Adults lose the lines to about the back of the eyes after the first molt. Obviously, he underestimated me and he got caught in an out and out lie! I took the bird, knowing he would grow up but I told him he would never get any references from me, except negative ones based on the experience I just had with him...

I would rather tell the truth and lose a sale than lie and lose my reputation!

[Jezz]

The Cinnamons eyes do darken at around 14 days and will appear black on adults. If you look really closely or with a torch/flashlight then you can see that they are not black. It is the same with the Pallids. But the flight feathers give both mutations away.
If Vincent was a Cinnamon, he wouldn't be so brightly coloured and the Blue colouring would be lighter.
I can see the red eyes of my Pallidino's if I look at them for awhile but it is too hard to see the colouring of a straight Pallid's eyes.

Don't worry Eric, we have all dealt with untrustworthy breeders, some worse than others:rolleyes: