Taming - Lovebirds vs. Parakeets

[Xanthus]

My mother used to breed Parakeets and when she got new birds, I'd often help her tame them.

We'd do this by just sticking our hands in the cage , slowly at first, and increasingly often with more speed as the birds got used to it. Eventually the birds would ignore the hand and not fret over it. Then we'd start touching their feet, tails and wingtips until they got used to that and then move into getting them to perch on a finger in the cage.

Once they got ok with doing everything IN the cage, we start removing them from the cage, for short periods at first, then longer an longer as they got used to it.

This method worked very well for us and we always had very tame, very friendly birds. They'd even let us examine their chicks without much of a fuss. They really trusted us a lot. The proccess usually took a few weeks to a couple months from start to finish.

I was wondering - how will this experience be similar or different in taming my 2 new lovebirds? I estimate them to be about 4-5 months old, based on beak spots, but I'm not sure. Some sources I've read claim Loves are easier than Parakeets to tame, while others claim the opposite is true.

I'm seen more than a few posts and articles that say you should forceably handle un-tamed Loves, like removing them from the cage, holding them to your chest, spending time alone with them in an unfamiliar room, etc.

This seems very counter-intuitive to me from what I've experienced while taming Parakeets. Also, to that fact, I've also seen a few posts or article that've counter-indicated this treatment of Loves as well, saving that you need to earn their trust, some even going so far as to say that you should basically just ingore the bird until it tames itself with its own curiosity...that seems like it would take far too long and I can't see that it would be very nice to have birds around that are just ignored constantly...

Can someone shed some light on this confusion for me?

Please, any responders, also tell me a little bit about your experience with Lovebirds, just so I can tell the people who're guessing and reading books from the people who actually know. No offense meant.

[bellarains]

Hi,

I have heard of success of introducing your hands to their cage, but with lovies, they are a bit more territorial than keets, so it will depend on the bird itself. In my case, I have one that doesn't mind hands in her cage at all, and the other only nips at you when you try to take something out. Putting something in is acceptable, but you can't have it back:lol

The holding the bird to your chest can work, or it can backfire. I hate to not give you a definite answer, but again, these little ones can be so different, and what works for one, just does not work at all for another. If both of your little ones are not tame, I would give them a little bit to settle in, and learn that you mean them no harm, before trying to hold them too much.

You will also find that taming works best with the cage out of sight. Cages are seen as a safe spot, and they will tend to want to fly back to it, if they can fly, or want back in it so bad, that they will bite to get what they want.

Taming is in essence earning trust, and that just takes time. The time you spend with them talking, interacting, and just caring for them will earn that trust, and all the time is definitely sooooooo worth it:)

Let us know how it's going.

[Nyghtraven]

Well like Bellarains said its true that every lovebird is different... I got my lovie from a breeder and he said that she is a very sweet gentle bird, and he is right she is sweet and gentle; very affectionate; But i just have one so I can give her one-on-one. Anyways the fact is.. you have to start slow with some lovies especially if you bought them from a pet store. What I read on many other forums is talk to them, so they can get used to your voice, try to have as much interaction with them so they can get used to you being near the cage. Slowly they'll start adjusting.. That's just my experience with gal. All I can really advise ya is to start slow.

[Keltoth]

I'm seen more than a few posts and articles that say you should forceably handle un-tamed Loves, like removing them from the cage, holding them to your chest, spending time alone with them in an unfamiliar room, etc.

This seems very counter-intuitive to me from what I've experienced while taming Parakeets. Also, to that fact, I've also seen a few posts or article that've counter-indicated this treatment of Loves as well, saving that you need to earn their trust, some even going so far as to say that you should basically just ingore the bird until it tames itself with its own curiosity...that seems like it would take far too long and I can't see that it would be very nice to have birds around that are just ignored constantly...

Can someone shed some light on this confusion for me?

You've wandered into a very old, and still very hot (outside of this community) debate.

There are two schools of thought in avian training: Dominance (forcing a bird to do what you want and instilling in the bird's mind that YOU are the dominant party in the relationship), versus the partnership approach, wherein the bird is empowered by allowing him/her to make decisions in the progress of the relationship. In the latter, you do not force a bird to do something it wants to do, but rather convince the bird that it wants to make the decision that you also want it to make.

There are pluses and minuses to each school of thought; dominance training often gets faster results in the short term (getting a bird to step up voluntarily, getting a bird to go back into his/her cage, etc), but you can also easily push the bird too far, too fast and permanently damage your chances for a full, loving relationship on the part of your bird. Partnership training almost always meets with some form of long-lasting success, but the amount of time invested in the training can be much, MUCH longer than that invested in dominance training. While this is not so critical in larger birds that live 30 years or longer - and thus there is more time to develop a quality relationship - in the smaller parrots like lovebird, this longer time investment can be a critical consideration, especially if you have an older lovebird that you have rescued or that was given to you by someone else.

In the case of lovebirds specifically, I consider both techniques to be polar ends of the spectrum. Any truly ethical person is going to want to develop a relationship with their intelligent birds that is sound, loving and based in trust - and logic dictates that the best way to gain this is to empower your bird so that they feel like they have some say-so in the events in their life. Having said that, it is my opinion that every bird owner - as well as the bird itself! - needs to understand that there are just going to be times in the bird's life where his human friend MUST impose their will on the bird, for the welfare and well-being of the bird itself. For example, if my house is on fire, I don't want to be forced to go find some towel or glove in order to be able to get my bird to come to me because he/she has decided that they really don't feel like stepping up for me at that particular moment in time. Another example is that I don't want my bird to fight me and require the use of a towel for me to hold them safely, just so that I can administer some sort of life-saving medication that they must take on a daily basis in order to survive.

It is my opinion that extremism, in and of itself, is an undesirable condition, no matter the subject to which it is applied. This thought process carries over to lovebird training well, and I believe it is to the benefit of the bird if you establish the fact early that there are just going to be times when you are going to impose your will on the relationship. The key to making this work is that the impositions need to be kept to a minimum, while at the same time being consistent in your approach. By way of example, ALL of my birds know that biting, in order to intimidate or coerce humans, is absolutely not allowed. They all know that the primary, unbreakable rule is that they do not hurt humans, and humans do not hurt birds - and that if they DO hurt a human through biting to intimidate or coerce through causing pain, there WILL be an immediate, deliberate and specific consequence for their actions. The consequence is different for each species in my home; if the lovebird bites, they are held on their backs with one hand, while they are "beaked" with the other; a process where I place my thumb and forefinger on either side of their beaks so that they cannot move or toss their head. Slight pressure is applied to the corners of their mouth/beak so as to cause slight physical discomfort, and then looking the bird straight in the eye as we say, "We don't bite! NO, NO!" three times before releasing it. I want to stress the emphasis on "slight"; DO NOT abuse your bird by causing acute, physical pain under ANY circumstances, as this will damage your relationship with your bird, and change it from a friend/friend type to a master/peon relationship. The key to all this is to be consistent. My birds are still empowered in that they know that I am willing to interact with them on THEIR terms and take their bites if they wish to bite me - but that if they choose to go down that road, there WILL be immediate and certain consequences to their actions. Sure, the bites sometimes hurt, but you will be amazed at how quick the biting drops to no bites at all when you confidently and consistently demonstrate the consequence for their inappropriate actions.

Incidentally, this approach will not work on larger birds, such as my Goffin's Cockatoos; their bites will literally turn your hands to hamburger in short order because they WILL bite successively harder each time until they get the expected and desired effect; i.e., you withdrawing your hands in order to avoid a painful bite. I have a 20-something wild-caught Goffin's who had not been handled in well over a decade, specifically because she was an indiscriminate chomper who would lay anyone open if given half a chance. For her, I took a variation of the lovebird technique; I would reach for the 'too to step up, she would bite me, and then I would put on a pair of electrician's leather gloves and make her step up. It took almost no time at all for her to realize that once the gloves were on, she could bite me as hard as she possibly could and she still would not get me to release her until *I* made the decision to end the training session. After that, she would grab my finger (and at first, it was still painful, as she did not understand where the threshold for causing pain was) and instead of trying deliberately to cause pain, she would instead forcibly push my fingers away from her. When she made this deliberate action, if she caused pain I would tell her, GENTLE!", get the gloves and put them on and then make her do step-ups; if she did this push-away action and did NOT cause pain, I would tell her "good job" in a happy voice and remove myself from her proximity. It didn't take her long to realize that no gloves plus no biting on her part was MUCH better than the gloves coming out and her having to do step-ups for 5 minutes.

Within three weeks, she would eagerly step-up without complaint when asked and almost never bit again.

Anyway, my point in all of this is that parrots, no matter their size, are as individualistic as humans are. You have to be able to find a balance with your bird as far as their conditioning goes. If you make clear boundaries as to what is and is not acceptable behavior, and are consistent with your consequences for violation of these boundaries, your birds almost always will respond in a positive manner.

Now, I don't want to give the impression that I am saying that dominance training does not work or that partnership training does not work - because even though I consider them to be ends of the spectrum, they do both work in their fashions. The thing about dominance training is that it is easy to fall into the escalation trap, in that if you have a bird that you perceive to be "stubborn" and not progressing at the speed you think it should, your consequences become inconsistent and often escalate into punishments, and then as the bird is desensitized to your treatment of it, these punishments have to become more and more intense in order to have a desired effect. This can VERY easily and quickly move from "training" to out-and-out ABUSE, and often permanently damages any chance of a friend/friend relationship with your bird. The shortcoming in straight-up partnership training is that if you are not ABSOLUTELY consistent in your conduct, you can actually teach your bird that if it is persistent in a specific action, it will eventually get his/her way or desired outcome. An example of this would be that if the bird tries to bite EVERY time a hand comes near it, sometimes the human will impose a consequence - and sometimes it will not and will just go away and leave it alone. This can become detrimental and spill over into all aspects of the bird's relationship with you and turn your bird into a screaming, plucking, and/or biting unsocial terror. No matter the approach you take, consistency in what is and is not acceptable - both on the part of the bird AND on your own part as far as consequences go - is paramount for bringing your bird around to interacting with you in a desirable, consistent manner.

Long-winded, I know. If you followed along to the end, thanks! :lol

- Eric

[Tango's_Mom]

I only have one lovebird, that I got just over 6mnths ago, I had done a lot of reading and to be honest I've found out that of all the info I got as much was BS as was useful, that was, of course, before I found this forum. I can tell you what worked for me, but as others have mentioned, every bird is different, and what works for one may not work for another. When I first got him the petstore clerk, who had birds herself and was quite helpful, suggested a method similar to what you described with the parakeets. Well I tried that and it became quite clear that Tango was TERRIFIED of hands, wanted absolutely nothing to do with them. So I went back to square one. I spent about a week just spending as much time as I could around his cage, didn't try to touch him, take him out anything, instead, I read to him, watched TV next to the cage, used my laptop etc. The only time I put my hands in the cage was to tidy up inside the cage and change food and water. I just let him get used to my presence and movements. It was during that time that I found this forum. I was advised to take him to a small, dimly lit room with no distractions (a bathroom works well, just make sure to cover the mirror and close the lid on the toilet) open the cage door and let him come out on his own. It took about 3 days before he would come out at all, and then he stayed on top of his cage, I started offering him millet, and slowly moved the millet further away from his cage to entice him off the cage, slowly he got brave enough to explore the bathroom, and then he would climb my pant legs and eventually decided he liked sitting on my shoulder. Once he got to the point that he came straight to me from the cage I started letting him out in the room where I kept his cage, once I could do that I spent as much time with him as I could and he got more and more friendly, he also started to get braver about exploring the area, but he stil hated hands, so, what I did was simply to do everyhting I normally would with my hands when around him, but never try to grab, pick up or actually pet him, as a result he was fine with my hands being there, as long as they left him alone. I could reach into his cage etc. just don't try to touch him. Because I couldn't pick him up I trained him to step onto a dowel.

As I said I've now had him 6 months, A number of weeks ago I noticed he seemed less bothered by hands, and was starting to allow me to stroke him, and there were fewer bites and they weren't hard, he more seemed to be exploring, so a couple weeks ago I asked him to step onto my finger, he gently nibbled it and up he went, two days later he was doing it consistenly everytime I asked, then last week all of the sudden for about 5 days he wouldn't do it at all, so when I took him out, I offered my finger, If he didn't step up, I offered the dowel, but every time I wanted him to step up, I'd offer the finger first if he didn't take it I would use the dowel, a couple days ago he suddenly again decided to step up to my finger and is now back to doing it consistently. I'm not saying it will take 6 months for your guys to step up onto a finger, many here have had birds who did it much earlier. I would have called Tango a tame bird months ago, just hand shy. Some might say that this approach isn't effective because of the time it took, but I'm really happy with how he's doing, right now he's happily sitting on his playgym next to my computer, watching me type and snacking on an avicake, I can reach out and get him to step up or give him some scritches no problem, and he's always happy to cuddle up on my shoulder, or in the pocket or hood of my sweatshirt.

[Kathryn]

Xanthus,
Lori, Eric and Jenna have offered great information on training. And to reiterate, all successful training techniques depend on the individual bird.

I have 12 Lovebirds and 2 Conures and each has a different personality and method of training. Some birds are better socialized and respond better to human touch and others were pet store birds who spent months in cages.

A socialized bird can be very stubborn getting acquainted with a new owner. And a store-bought bird that is hungry for attention can respond quickly to training/bonding.

Try the techniques learned from your mom, experiment with new methods, talk or read to your birds so they become familiar with your voice. Eye contact is very important. Learning to nibble food from your hand/fingers is a definite stepping stone to building trust.

I would suggest separating your birds so that you can determine the individual behavior of each bird. The first couple of weeks interacting with you can be more productive if you can concentrate on each bird individually.

20 minute sessions are about the tolerance level of a young lovie. If possible do this twice a day.

Read through the Resource section and review the threads in the training section.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

[Xanthus]

Yay! Great evening!

I spent about an hour, or hour and a half communing with my 2 lovies in their cage. And I started noticing something. The bird with the dark spots still on it's beak wasn't actually scared anymore. Just belligerant! :rofl:

In fact, neither seemed to be actually scared anymore. The smooth beaked one (**** I need to get these sexed so I can give them names! :p ) was calm and simply moving around to avoid my hand...while the one with the spotted beak was just dive bombing the other poor bird and shoving it towards me...when it wasn't busy kicking it in the head and knocking it off perches.

Then I had an idea. I had left a sprig of celery in the cage last night to try to hopefully get them started eating something besides seed (no luck on that yet. sad ) Since they're used to the celery, I could use the sprig's feathery leaves to interact with them.

So, I started petting the nice bird with the celery and he (using he because english doesn't have any good, gender-nonspecific pronouns) really liked it! He chirped and chirriped and closed his eyes and arched his head into it.

So, I started holding the celery closer and closer to the leaves until I was actually petting the bird with my finger. Once he realized I was doing that he got very offended and I had to start over holding the celery at the base.

To make a long story short, after a lot of tries, the nice bird was letting me pet his wings and rub his feet, while the crazy spotty-beaked one was still busy divebombing the other bird and trying to steal the celery in mid-flight. I got the distinct idea from his body language and behavior that he was jealous of the attention the nice bird was getting, but he still refused any kind attention himself...which was a confusing contradiction. :rolleyes:

After a few minutes more the nice bird started stepping up with one foot, or hopping onto my finger and immediately off. He nibbled a bit and bit a few times rather hard...but I have very calloused fingers from martial arts and injuries, so it didn't have much effect. I gave him my best scowl and said "No!" in a low, mean voice and he seemed to get the idea that that wasn't going to be an acceptable option. Whenever her kept his foot on without biting I praised him and talked to him in a cheerful voice.

He got the picture and actually got on my finger, too! :D

It was getting close to the time I generally have been cleaning their cage and covering them for the night, so he was getting a little sleepy and decided to actually do his evening preening on my finger! I held still and he spent about 5 minutes or so making sure all his feathers were in order. He started to fall asleep after that, but as I didn't feel like standing upright for the rest of the night...I moved him to a perch and told him "Down" nicely. He stepped down and I priased him and slowly withdrew, did their nightly cleanup and covered them for the night.

[bellarains]

It does sound like you had a good session out. Keep it up on a daily basis, as these little ones will get used to a routine, and before long, they will come to expect you to get them out.

Way to go!!!!

[Xanthus]

It does sound like you had a good session out...before long, they will come to expect you to get them out.

Unfortunately, this session was done completey within their cage, as they're not clipped yet, and as I haven't clipped a bird in 10+ years, I'm gonna let the vet get them the first time so he can give me a refresher on it.

Meaning, unfortunately, that they'll probably be in their cage for the first week or so, until I can get them to the vet's. :(

But still, for day 2 of taming with 2 "totally parent-raised", "totally NOT tame" (the pet shop's words), I think this is AWESOME progress!

I'm just wondering...what's up with the one with the spotty beak?

He was acting very jealous of the attention the other bird was getting - but still refused all attention. At first, he kept trying to push the other bird toward me, but then when the other bird started playing nice with me, spotty beak was all mean, kicking the other bird in the head, flying around and knocking him over, attacking the celery I was brushing him with, etc...

That bird is just goofy! Does anyone know what might be causing his odd behavior? Or what I can do to win him over? :confused:

[Tango's_Mom]

It sounds like a great start, I think since the one is so interested in you and doing so well already, you might find that the less "friendly" one warms up to you faster then he would than if he was on his own, because he'll be inclined to follow the others lead. Congrats on the great progress and keep us updated on how they're doing, we always like to hear when things are going well and to offer any advise if you have questions.

One more thing I'll add, just remember to be consistent and not to get too disheartened if everyday with them isn't as smooth as yesterday, birds have bad days too, but in the end if your patient, and work at building trust, you will end up with two great little feathered companions. Getting Tango and bringing him to school with me was probably one of the best decisions I ever made. I absolutely love having him with me.

[Xanthus]

I stopped at the shop on the way home for lunch to swap out their food and I picked up some millet and fruit treats.

I tried to give them a small sprig of millet while I was home...

They reacted like I was coming at them with a KNIFE.

I've never seen two birds so afraid of a treat before in my life!

I left a chunk of it stuck to their favorite perch...hopeind they wouldn't still be cowering from it when I get home.

When I got home, the millet was sitting, discarded, at the bottom of the cage. It looks like they just knocked it off the perch and nothing else...

I did some more training with the one that'll allow it. I even got him to try the millet, and he seemed to like it, though not as insanely as suggested.

The other bird is still very angry and belligerant at me. But overall, both birds were still very reserved and timid.

They actually both started doing the beak grind click thing a bit before their bedtime. I put a small sprig of millet in a treat bowl for them along with some parrot fruit mix I picked up with the millet. My wife broke off a few small peices of that and mixed it in with their new food, along with some of the fruit mix.

They eventually started eating off the little millet bits. They do seem to like it now, but they still won't try the fruit. I thought it was funny, one of them threw a mostly-eaten bit of millet stem at one of that cats that was passing the cage stand . The cat tried eating the stem but decided it wasn't edible.

On another good note, they been MUCH more vocal this evening. Making all sorts of little chirps and chirrips and got pretty loud at one point.

They've been wrestling a bit and fighting over sunflower seeds. The new seed mix has a bit of sunflower seeds in it and they've been stealing seeds from each other, knocking seeds out of each other's mouths, wrestling over seeds, etc. Pretty loudly at point. It's funny to watch. Especially when they're a bunch more seeds right back in the food bowl - no need to fight!

I'm beginning to think that the younger on (beak spots) is female, while the older one (no spots) is male. Mainly because the older one preens a lot more and is more even-tempered. While the younger one is hyper, tempermental and doesn't seems very concerned with her appearance. She's had a couple scruffy tailfeather pretty much since we got them and doesn't seem too concerned, while the older one is constantly primping. Also, I caught the older one feeding the younger one late this evening. Which is generally a male to female thing. I remember someone on this forum even going so far as to say that ONLY male lovebirds feed other birds.

I also found out from one of the pet shop workers that this breeder's birds ALWAYS arrive in pairs and although she didn't actually know for sure she said that she'd just assumed that they came in breedable pairs for those that wanted to. So, hopefully that's the case. Not sure if I want to breed them...but I'd like to HAVE the option.

The older one also continues to be a real fast tamer and has had more success with stepping up (and down) and even seems to be biting a bit less. The younger bird is still angry and belligerant towards me, but seems to be increasingly curious towards what I'm doing with his friend as time goes on. Maybe his innate curiosity will do some of my work for me.

Oh, another thing, they are absolutely DEVOURING the cuttlebone!
Perhaps they hadn't been getting enough calcium in the shop/breeder's? Or is that just normal?

[Janie]

I'd forget about the fruit and try vegetables. Some lovebirds will eat fruit but none of my three like it and most prefer vegetables to fruit. I started with raw broccoli (still a favorite) and moved on to corn, peas, carrots and kale after that. You might try offering one vegetable at a time and give them a couple of weeks before offering a different one. If they go for the veggie immediately, then you can offer a second one along with the first. It took my older adopted bird 3 weeks before he'd take a tiny nibble of broccoli but he was around 7 and had only been offered seed till we adopted him. My two younger birds were 9 to 10 weeks old when I bought them and they took to the veggies almost immediately. They also LOVE birdie cornbread (see diet section for recipe). BTW, do remove all fresh foods after 2 hours to keep bacteria from growing.

Funny thing about your two not going straight for the millet.....same thing with my Oliver. He'd never had it and had no idea that it was "bird candy!" He knows now and he loves it but I only offer it about every two weeks.

BTW, all three of mine are males and the two younger brothers constantly fed each other for the first six months after I got them. Now, they only feed their birdie buddies! :D Even if you have two of the same sex, sometimes one will take on the behavior of the opposite sex. Also, I've read that females prefer cuddle bone more than males but all three of mine love it. Not a day goes by that I don't see each one of them eating some cuddle bone.

[Xanthus]

I'd forget about the fruit and try vegetables. Some lovebirds will eat fruit but none of my three like it and most prefer vegetables to fruit. I started with raw broccoli (still a favorite) and moved on to corn, peas, carrots and kale after that. You might try offering one vegetable at a time and give them a couple of weeks before offering a different one.

I've offered them sliced carrots, celery and broccoli so far. They've shown no interest in any of them, though the older one enjoyed being brushed by the leafy end of the celery. :rotfl:

I guess I'll try sticking to one vegetable at a time for a week or two, that might work better.


If they go for the veggie immediately, then you can offer a second one along with the first. It took my older adopted bird 3 weeks before he'd take a tiny nibble of broccoli but he was around 7 and had only been offered seed till we adopted him. My two younger birds were 9 to 10 weeks old when I bought them and they took to the veggies almost immediately. They also LOVE birdie cornbread (see diet section for recipe). BTW, do remove all fresh foods after 2 hours to keep bacteria from growing.

Me and my wife are no slouches in the kitchen, so I may try to do the cornbread thing, also I've heard of mashing a hard-boiled egg up, mixed with seed and veggies (and maybe fruit). Supposedly the egg's a real favorite, and the seed will get them to try it, and they'll end up inadvertantly trying all the other stuff, too.


Funny thing about your two not going straight for the millet.....same thing with my Oliver. He'd never had it and had no idea that it was "bird candy!" He knows now and he loves it but I only offer it about every two weeks.

They do seem to be taking to the millet better that their initial reaction. I always wish I could get birds that are more adventurous, food-wise. Always had trouble with all my parakeets, and now with these birds, to get them to try new foods. Even though all the books say that they're "curious and love to try new foods!" Perhaps we should have been introducing the parakeet chicks to new foods earlier or something... :confused:


BTW, all three of mine are males and the two younger brothers constantly fed each other for the first six months after I got them. Now, they only feed their birdie buddies! :D Even if you have two of the same sex, sometimes one will take on the behavior of the opposite sex. Also, I've read that females prefer cuddle bone more than males but all three of mine love it. Not a day goes by that I don't see each one of them eating some cuddle bone.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that it's not more of a "tell"...but in line with females liking cuttlebone more...the one I think is female does seem to be the one that's devouring it so much. :)

[sdgilley]

Hi,

Sounds like you have your hands full. :) Like Janie said, males will feed males and females will feed females. I have two bonded males, and one feeds the other. One is agressive and one is not. So, as my vet says, with the sex you have a 50/50% chance! :rofl:

I also have a hen, who is extremely territorial. BUT, she was not that way when she was a baby. Your agressive bird has baby spots on it's beak. Birds go through stages from chick to mature bird.

I'd recommend a well-bird visit to an avian vet, and I'd get them DNA sexed. If you have one bird that is so agressive as a baby, you may have a pair that won't live well together. Bonded lovebirds are so sweet, but if you put two together that don't get along, it can be deadly to one.

It could also be, they are still adjusting. Adjusting to a new home and new owner can take longer than we expect.

[Janie]

I'd recommend a well-bird visit to an avian vet, and I'd get them DNA sexed. If you have one bird that is so agressive as a baby, you may have a pair that won't live well together. Bonded lovebirds are so sweet, but if you put two together that don't get along, it can be deadly to one.



Ditto to that! Very good advice from Suzanne. :) All of it was, Suzanne, but that part is very important and can keep a disaster from occurring.

[Xanthus]

Well, they're not agressive to the point of actually fighting...just squabbling over choice bits of food. :D They seem reasonable friendly to each other.

I already have an appointment to see an avian vet to get them a checkup and DNA sexing next Thusday. The vet is Greg Rich, DVM. He speaks at avian seminars and has written a few things.

The receptionist tried to sell me on surgical sexing...but I've always been wary of putting my birds under anesthetic.

Along with the DNA testing, I'm going to try to get them tested to see if they're siblings or not. Dr. Rich said his lab used to do that test, but he's not sure if they offer it anymore...hopefully they still do.

[sdgilley]

I already have an appointment to see an avian vet to get them a checkup and DNA sexing next Thusday. The vet is Greg Rich, DVM. He speaks at avian seminars and has written a few things.:clap: :clap: That's great, we'll want an update! It's always good to know!

As far as sexing, I agree with you on surgical sexing, :x . The blood sexing is easily done by blood (toenail nick) or plucking a few feathers. And, in my opinion, it's safer for the birds.

As for siblings, I don't remember if that matters... I remember some discussion in the breeding section on what's considered safe (parent & offspring pairs, etc).. so maybe someone with breeding knowledge can chime in on that. My three birds are different species, so there is no breeding going on with my little flock.

[Xanthus]

As for siblings, I don't remember if that matters... I remember some discussion in the breeding section on what's considered safe (parent & offspring pairs, etc).. so maybe someone with breeding knowledge can chime in on that. My three birds are different species, so there is no breeding going on with my little flock.

Well, as far as I know, breeding siblings is always a BIG no-no. I'm guessing that breeding parents with offspring would be similarly counter-indicated. :confused:

[Xanthus]

I came to an idea today. The younger bird is still running from my hand/finger, but it's been calm so long as I don't bring my hand near her. Like, she'll let me put my face right next to her and such...so I tried getting her to step up onto a spare wooden perch (like a dowel. ::)). She did it INSTANTLY and sat there on the perch looking very pleased with herself, giving me a look like, "What, you thought that was hard?" LOL

So, apparently, she's just scared of hands for some reason...probably from pet shop employees and breeders grabbing her.

The other, older, bird is also more and more getting the hang of stepping up (although, I've been using "Get On" rather than "Step up"...it just sounds better to me. LOL) and seems to be getting the hint that biting's not going to get him anywhere. ;D I just tell him "No." in a gruff voice, scowl at him, and if he keeps doing it, I blow a little puff of air at him. He seems to be getting the hint, which is great.

They have been developing a bad habit of taunting the cat though...I've been doing VERY well training the cats to avoid the cage area...but now the silly birds are fighting me on it! I try to keep the cats away, they try to get them to come over! They sit on the front of the cage and squawk at the cat whenever it looks at them. I've been keeping the cats locked up while I'm away while I'm training THEM...but it looks like the birds might be extending how long THAT training is gonna take...silly little gits.

The younger bird also seems to have developed a deep-seated need to absolutely DEMOLISH the cage, lol. She tries to pry the swing off the roof, tries to pull down the hanging bell toy, knocks over the ladder with the mirror, throws food around, tries to pry the cuttelbone off the side of the cage, tries to pull the food bins off the cage, etc. She seems very angry at her surrounds. LOL

[DebSpace]

Hmmmm...it sounds like, and I'm just guessing, but it sounds like young spotted beak might be a baby hen. :whistle: Hens tend to be more aggressive and like to shred or destroy things (part of their nesting instinct). As for the fear of millet, it does take time for them to get used to something new - be it a toy, your hand, or a new food item. Lovebirds view everything in defense mode, sort of like us women with PMS! :lol

If you are handling them INSIDE the cage, this is their territory and a female will defend her territory with maximum ferocity. :evil: By the same token, I expect they are letting your cat know that they won't be intimidated (even if your cat isn't trying to intimidate them). These are natural, instinctive behaviors. Taming lovebirds takes loving patience, gentle consistency and lots of stamina! Once you achieve this objective, you begin to experience the wonders of bird ownership on a whole new level.

If you want to save a few dollars on the DNA test, you can do this yourself. Avian Biotech has complete information about this on their website. Very pleased, though, that you are taking them to a vet for a wellness visit. :)

[Xanthus]

Hmmmm...it sounds like, and I'm just guessing, but it sounds like young spotted beak might be a baby hen. :whistle: Hens tend to be more aggressive and like to shred or destroy things (part of their nesting instinct). As for the fear of millet, it does take time for them to get used to something new - be it a toy, your hand, or a new food item. Lovebirds view everything in defense mode, sort of like us women with PMS! :lol

Heh, yeah. I'm very much of the opinion/guess that the younger one (spotted beak) is a hen and the older one (no spots) is a male. Won't know for sure till the DNA gets done, though.


If you are handling them INSIDE the cage, this is their territory and a female will defend her territory with maximum ferocity. :evil: By the same token, I expect they are letting your cat know that they won't be intimidated (even if your cat isn't trying to intimidate them). These are natural, instinctive behaviors. Taming lovebirds takes loving patience, gentle consistency and lots of stamina! Once you achieve this objective, you begin to experience the wonders of bird ownership on a whole new level.

I'm not sure that she's really defending anything, more just fluttering around belligerantly and scolding me. Except when I have millet, apparently - lol! I had both of them eating off a piece I was holding for them.

Our cat's completely insane. She sits at the window and actually mimics squirrel sounds whenever one wanders by her view...only the second cat I've ever seen mimic anything - and the first was on YouTube. :P

Now she just tries to talk to the birds - but she can't make that sound, apparently. So she just meows at them when they chirp at her.


If you want to save a few dollars on the DNA test, you can do this yourself. Avian Biotech has complete information about this on their website. Very pleased, though, that you are taking them to a vet for a wellness visit. :)

How easy/safe is it to take the blood drop from the nail for that test though? I've never had to trim a bird's claws before...

Plus it doesn't look like Avian Biotech can test for relation - though it's still questionable if my vet's service still runs that test...so eh. :P

[Kathryn]

Here's how I take the toenail blood drop sample for Bio-Tech.

First I fill out the cards and slip the cards backwards into the plastic sleeve so that the circle for the sample is exposed.

Then, one bird at a time, I towel the birdie in my left hand so that one foot is exposed and use two fingers of the left hand to gently hold that foot (yes, it can be done)

Then with my right hand, I used tiny clippers to just clip the end of a toenail. I gently massage the foot to stimulate bloodflow and then hold the card up to the little drop of blood trying to carefully focus the drop in the tiny circle. If no blood appears with the first toenail clip, I clip a different toenail. You just want a tiny tip...if you reclip the same toenail, then there is too much of an opening and the bleeding is hard to stop.

I use flour or cornstarch as a clotting powder if I don't have Cutheal powder. Steptic pencils burn. I apply slight pressure to the toenail tip to help stop the bleeding.

I love on my birdie before I replace it in the cage.

Once the samples are taken and dried...pull the cards out and put them back in the sleeve so that the sample is at the bottom of the sleeve. You can fill out the order form, payment method and send all in a regular mailing envelope.

If you include an email address, Bio-Tech will alert you of the test results before the results arrive in the mail.

I've sampled 18 birds so far and have only nicked one toenail too closely. :x Luckily I had Cutheal available and a spray on wound dressing. (When you run a cattleranch, you must have emergency vet supplies on hand)

[Xanthus]

It also seems you can do the test by just plucking a few chest feathers. I think I'll do it that way. Supposedly it's less painful for the bird as well. And it's only about $4 USD more. Not bad! :D

[kimsbirds]

Just a word of advice on plucking chest feathers...the feathers need to be fresh and intact...meaning the little fleshy bulb root that is embedded under the skin of the bird MUST be on the feathers you pluck. Thats where the DNA comes from. I know with healthgene, if they can't extract enough DNA from the feather bulb, they make you pay again to submit another sample. Blood is definite, all you need is 1-2 drops and they can test efficiently.
I switched from feather to blood after I had a 3x repeated test *chaaaa-chingggggg*

K

[Xanthus]

Heh, even if I have to do it 3x, it's still cheaper than having my vet do blood.

And as far as I can tell from reading and posting on various forums, the feather method hurts the bird less. And has little to no risk, where the nail clipping can be dangerous if the bleeding isn't stopped promptly - and then it's possible to get infected...etc.

I think for my peace-of-mind the feather pluck's the way to go.

[Janie]

Be sure to pull enough feathers. Since I've never done it, I'm not sure how many have to be sent but I think my breeder sends 6 per bird.

Kimmie can tell you how many.

[Xanthus]

The site's instructions say 3-5

[kimsbirds]

healthgene.com recommends 6-8 fresh full breast feathers, I think it's because they allow for a few feathers not supplying enough DNA...
Make sure your tweezers are sterilized and put in your earplugs...each pluck gets you a "SQAWWWWWWWWWWK" LOLOL

[Xanthus]

I was thinking to keep the held bird covered, like with a handtowl or cloth. Both to keep them calmer, and hopefully to keep them from associating me with the pulling. :P

I used to work at a DNA lab (not as a tech, but I did talk with the techs often). It only takes ONE successful sample to do the test. The original 3-5 is just to allow for failed samples. 6-8 just means they're REALLY compensating. LOL

[Janie]

healthgene.com recommends 6-8 fresh full breast feathers, I think it's because they allow for a few feathers not supplying enough DNA...
Make sure your tweezers are sterilized and put in your earplugs...each pluck gets you a "SQAWWWWWWWWWWK" LOLOL

Thanks for that reply, Kim. Yep, that's what Jeanette told me and she sends in at least six.

[Xanthus]

Talked to a DNA tech today - turns out no labs in the US (or most places) do relation testing for birds anymore. Supposedly, it's cost-prohibitive (anotherwords they have to charge too much and don't make enough profit off it). There are only 2 labs left that do it. 1 in Canada and 1 in Italy.

I called the one in Canada:

HealthGene
1-877-371-1551

They charge $ 64 USD a sample for relation testing. IIRC, it takes 4 weeks to proccess. Also, they test can only be done with whole blood, not blood cards or feather. So you have to send in vials.

This being both expensive and complex to do - I'm going to try to track down the breeder through Petsmart if I can. Maybe they'll know if the 2 birds were siblings or not.

[Xanthus]

Had some good luck with new foods today, sorta. :/

I tried putting a fresh, opened walnut as well as some boiled sweet corn in their food bowl. They took all the peices of walnut out of one half of the shell and then played soccer with the empty shell all over the bottom of the cage. :lol:

They did seem to try to eat the corn, they'd pick it up, chew on it, lick it all over...but they couldn't seem to get the hang of eating it and would eventually drop it. They tried a few times, but then they decided the corn worked a lot better for throwing at each other. ::)

So, at least they're TRYING new foods. :lol:

In any case, the training's still going very well. The older bird's really starting to get the hang of the step up command. I don't think he really LIKES doing it yet, but he knows what I want. He'll at least put one foot my my finger and usually hops on with both feet - but only for a second. I've been making sure to say "Down" every time he leaves my finger though. He's also almost completely stopped biting, he'll eat from my hand without hesitation and will even let me pet his wings and neck.

Upon closer inspection, it looks like he still does have a very small amount of black stippling down the side of his beak, like the other. So that means they're still close together in age.

The younger bird is still wary of my hands, though she doesn't really seem angry or scared of them anymore - just distrustful. She now CALMLY avoids me, and doesn't even yell at me much anymore. Which is an improvement I think. :)

They's both more than happy to eat treats from my hand (millet preferrably) and they'll both play along with me with their hanging bell toy, which is very cute.

They have been napping a lot. They seem to only have energy in short spurts. Like they play and roughouse with each other and eat and scurry about the cage like little bolts of blue energy for about 20min to an hour - then they nap on and off for an hour - though the older one still chirps and sings to himself in his sleep. :lol:

The older bird seems like he's trying to establish dominance. He takes food from the other bird, pushes him off perches and bites his ankles - not hard, just playfully almost. Though, they're both trying to get each other to feed them - which usually devolves into wrestling. And they're sweet to each other at times, too, preening each other and snuggling up together to sleep.

[Xanthus]

Ok, called Petsmart, talked to the manager. He said they get their birds from "Preferred Pets" in Destin, FL. I found a Preferred Pets listed in Milton, FL. I also found this article (http://www.birdadoption.org/problem.htm):


Large-scale "parrot mill" breeding operations, such as Kaytee Preferred Birds,* which supplies PETsMART, are now producing thousands of chicks each year, with a goal of producing even more! They have a network of breeders that mass-produce both parent-raised and hand-fed birds, which are transferred to hand-feeding facilities and stores at an early age. While it is in the company's best interest to raise these birds in relatively clean, regulated, disease-free facilities, it is next to impossible to properly, personally socialize and educate baby parrots under such assembly line, parent-free production breeding conditions. To make matters worse, when these birds are sold through warehouse pet stores like PETsMART and PETCO, buyers rarely receive quality products or solid care advice from the inexperienced, transient staff often employed at these stores. In addition, the display and marketing of gentle, beautiful, juvenile birds in pet stores leads to many being purchased on impulse, and a parrot purchased on impulse without a foundation of education rarely finds a lifelong home.

Now, with not much hope of finding my answers, I called one of 2 numbers they had listed. Turns out it's the number for the maintenance guy's house! :lol

Needless to say he was a bit surprised to be getting information calls. But he was nice enough to field my inane questions, nonetheless. :lol

He said that Preferred Birds doesn't breed the smaller birds, they get them in large batches from multiple outside breeders, then distribute those batches to Petsmart locations. He also said that they don't really keep any records on the smaller birds, either.

So, my educated guess is that if these 2 birds came randomly from a large batch of birds, then the chances that they're 2 birds from the same clutch from the same breeder is rather slim. Also considering that they don't appear to be the same age. One looks a couple months older than the other.

If their DNA comes back as being Male & Female AND I decide to breed them in the future, I may decide to get them relation tested, but as it is now, I doubt they're brother and sister. So, I'm not incredibly worries about it. Heck, I don't even know if they're male & female. :lol Though, I have my guesses. :)

[Kathryn]

hmmmmm
8o Based on your attempts at gaining the factual information for assessing sibling relationship, I'd probably come to the same conclusion.

:2cents: I'm thankful both birds have come to live with an owner who is willing to care about that relationship.

[Xanthus]

Ok, I was trying the other day to get them to eat corn, but they seemed to have problems with it, and I tried carrots - but the pieces were too big I think.

So today I finely chopped some:


Banana
Apple
Green Bell Pepper
Carrot
Sweet Corn
Fresh Broccoli
Celery

And put it in a spare food bowl and sprinkled it with some of their normal seed mixture and shook it up a little to coat it with seeds.

Then, I took out their normal food and put the fruit/veggie salad in in the same spot, as on the surface it looked like their normal food. (Mwuaahahahh!!! [I'm devious] :p)

And I was shocked. They absolutely DEVOURED it. The food dish was half full, maybe a little more. After about 3 hours, I can see the bottom of the bin. :omg:

I don't even know where they put it all. There's a small amount on the bottom of the cage, and 1 peice of broccoli they threw at the cat - but the rest is gone. They'd go over and stick their heads in and munch on the mix for 5 minutes at a time, barely coming up for air!

I'm just in absolute wonderment - where the heck did they put all that food??! :confused:

[Janie]

That is just great!!!! :clap: There is nothing better than seeing your lovebirds eat something that's good for them!!! :)

[bellarains]

Wonderful. I am so glad they are eating well. There is something to be said for "presentation", and it sounds like you presented it just right:)

[Xanthus]

Hehe:

"We've replaced these Lovebirds' normal seed mixture with seed coated fruits and vegetables - let's see if they notice!" :P

[Z28Taxman]

I'm just in absolute wonderment - where the heck did they put all that food??!

I ask Ditto that question every night. While we watch tv on the couch at night he'll eat at least 2 avi-cake squares and a nutriberry or 2 that he brings from the cage to my hand. I have no Idea how he stuffs that much in that little body. :rotfl: