Update and Request for Critique

[Xanthus]

Ok, after having our new babies for almost 2 weeks now, I'm just looking to double-check my progress and methods, to make sure I'm still making progress, and still doing it in the correct manner.

They still haven't had any out-of-cage training or playtime since I got them, as their wings are still not clipped - though this should be remedied at their avian vet wellness checkup tomorrow. Also, either I or the vet will be harvesting a few feathers for DNA sexing tomorrow. So, I should have their sexes by the end of the week - provided I can tell them apart. :rolleyes:

So far I've been trying to get them used to my hands, working on the step-up command and trying very hard to get the tamer one to stop biting. :(

The tamer one will 90% of the time step up with at least one foot, but getting him to step the other foot on as well is VERY hard still. He refuses to be handled or to step up, unless he's perched on the back wall of the cage. He won't step up from a perch. He flies to the back of the cage and waits there.

Also, he doesn't bite as frequently anymore, but when he does bite, it's much harder, now. I'm not sure if that's good or bad. :rolleyes:

I had started by telling him "No." in a low, growly voice when he bit, and that worked for a little while (2-3 days), then he started ignoring that, so I started giving him a puff of air along with the "No." and that worked for another couple days. But now, it seems when he's determined to bite, he's just going to do it, regardless of chastizement or air blowing. He's even started angling himself away from me so when I blow on him he doesn't get as much air on him.

So, I tried someone else's suggestion of holding his beak and rubbing it downwards when he bit - that didn't work at all. He seemed to think I was trying to beak wrestle with him and got MORE bitey about it.

So, I went back to "No." and air puffing and added in a prod with my finger. When he bites I poke him (not hard) in the chest or shoulder with my thumb and say "No." and blow air on him. He seems to dislike that and has mostly ceased biting. But, unfortunately when he does decide to bite it's very hard (close to breaking skin probably), painful and he holds on and chews until I pry him off with my thumb.

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here, or if I'm not doing anything wrong, what else I can do?

The less tame of the two birds still flees my hand and squawks angrily at me whenever I have my hand in the cage. She usually flees to a corner and stays there eyeing me warily as I'm interacting with the other bird. However, whenever I offer the other bird any sort of praise or treat, she becomes very jealous, sometimes flying at the other bird, or usually just trying to inch closer and staring at me curiosly. If I offer them millet, she'll come close enough to stretch our her neck and get some, but no closer. She's sat still long enough for me to pet her once or twice, but that's still the exception, rather than the rule.

Both birds will readily step up onto a perch or dowel. Whenever either birds steps off of a finger or dowel, either by their choice or mine, I say "Down". Is there anything else I should be doing to try to get them trained to the "Down" command?

[zlatushka]

Someone else will chime in here soon, but these are my thoughts so far :)

Sounds like you're doing pretty well so far. Two things I would suggest are:

1. Don't reach into their cage for them. Let them come out on their own.

Yes, it may take a while for them to venture out, but they'll be less defensive about hands and you in general, if you don't "invade" their "space". Lovies (as I'm sure you've discovered) are intensly curious, and they will come check you out eventually. The curiousity will eat them up. LOL. I seemed to have the most success with pretending I wasn't paying attention to them. I'd open up the cage so he could get out and then sit somewhere nearby where he could see me. I'd read a book, or type on the computer (or play pinball, which has those funny sounds that they love)... he'd be over in a minute or two to check out what I was doing.

2. Try working with them (i.e. practising the step ups etc) where they can't see their cage, or hear the other bird.

I know that this can be a difficult thing to achieve, but it does speed up the taming process. This will keep them from being able to "fly home" when they decide they don't want to do whatever it is you'd like them to do. Also it will delineate "work" time from "play" time and give you some one on one with each.


also...forgot to add... :) You'll see a big difference once the wings are clipped. That will make it much easier on you. So you might want to not worry to much until after the vet visit, and the "attitude adjustment" LOL. Good luck with everything, and keep us updated on how its going. :)

[Xanthus]

1. Don't reach into their cage for them. Let them come out on their own.

Yes, it may take a while for them to venture out, but they'll be less defensive about hands and you in general, if you don't "invade" their "space". Lovies (as I'm sure you've discovered) are intensly curious, and they will come check you out eventually. The curiousity will eat them up. LOL. I seemed to have the most success with pretending I wasn't paying attention to them. I'd open up the cage so he could get out and then sit somewhere nearby where he could see me. I'd read a book, or type on the computer (or play pinball, which has those funny sounds that they love)... he'd be over in a minute or two to check out what I was doing.
I've seen conflicting opinions on this one. Some people say to let them have their cage as 'their space' and always wait for them to come out on their own. Others say that you should try to interact with them outside the cage, but not to shy away from getting them out, or moving things in the cage with them in there, as they need to be compliant in the cage as well, in case of emergencies, or for cage cleaning or such.

That, and they're not clipped until tomorrow so cage is my only option until then. :P


I know that this can be a difficult thing to achieve, but it does speed up the taming process. This will keep them from being able to "fly home" when they decide they don't want to do whatever it is you'd like them to do. Also it will delineate "work" time from "play" time and give you some one on one with each.
I'll keep that in mind. Though, I'm not sure what you mean in regards to birds with 'work' and 'play' times? I hope they don't see interacting with me as 'work' :(


also...forgot to add... :) You'll see a big difference once the wings are clipped. That will make it much easier on you. So you might want to not worry to much until after the vet visit, and the "attitude adjustment" LOL. Good luck with everything, and keep us updated on how its going. :)
Yeah, I've heard a lot about this one. Some people's birds seem to only need clipping once to get their attitude under control, while others' seem to need to be constantly clipped or they get out of controll... :confused:

[zlatushka]

I've seen conflicting opinions on this one. Some people say to let them have their cage as 'their space' and always wait for them to come out on their own. Others say that you should try to interact with them outside the cage, but not to shy away from getting them out, or moving things in the cage with them in there, as they need to be compliant in the cage as well, in case of emergencies, or for cage cleaning or such.

I move things around with my two in there, they've come to know that when I've got a hand in there it's not after them, so they'll pretty much ignore me. Now if I'm removing a favourite object for cleaning... they'll usually tell me about it :lol

If I have to remove them from the cage (say an emergency or I can't let them out, then collect them) they are also calmer this way, not freaking out when they see The Hand coming. I can usually get Baby (the female) to step up to a finger and bring her out that way if I need.



I'm not sure what you mean in regards to birds with 'work' and 'play' times? I hope they don't see interacting with me as 'work' :(
Not so much "work work work" but as a difference maybe more with "training" time and just "hanging out" time. If that makes sense...



Some people's birds seem to only need clipping once to get their attitude under control, while others' seem to need to be constantly clipped or they get out of controll... :confused:
I've found that Friday needs to be kept clipped if I want to ever have a chance of working with thim. He's a fast little bugger and likes to rub it in. Even with a full clip, he's still able to fly well, although at slightly less than the speed of sound.

Eric (Keltoth) seems to (and he may correct this if I'm way off) clip them till they've learned manners, and then let them be flighted or only partially clipped until it seems like they need an "Attitude Adjustment" aka...Not coming when they should, or flying away when they need to go back in the cage etc etc. So I guess it just comes down to knowing your birds, and doing what will suit them and your situation best.

[mangotiki]

I know that working in a dimly lit room can help...but is this because the bird is less willing to fly, is calmer, or is less likely to bite? (IPlease say that the dark will make the bird less likely to bite).:omg:

Way to go, Xanthus...sounds like you are both patient and determined! The only thing I would add is to keep on their schedule...this can take longer or shorter depending on the bird.

Traci

[Keltoth]

Eric (Keltoth) seems to (and he may correct this if I'm way off) clip them till they've learned manners, and then let them be flighted or only partially clipped until it seems like they need an "Attitude Adjustment" aka...Not coming when they should, or flying away when they need to go back in the cage etc etc.

Yup, that's what I do. For my flock, nothing bridges the avain/human communication gap to say, "BIRDIE, YOU SCREWED UP!" quite like the dreaded scissors coming out and taking off a few primary flights. In fact, all I have to do with many individuals in the lovebird flock is tell them in a stern voice, "Do I need to clip your wings?" when they are being bad, and they stop where they are and step up on the presented finger.

Aeyu, Myst, Melodie, Skie and Paco never get clipped. Zipper, Pete, Vincent, and Pixie are ALWAYS clipped. Everyone else are at various stages of clipping in between, and Shadow has recently graduated from the "always clipped" camp to the "hasn't been clipped in ages and is almost back to full flights" camp. I'd like to say that I think he's decided on his own that he wants to be nice, but I believe it was more of a case of him getting tired of Aeyu leaving him behind all the time as she flew around the aviary, thoroughly enjoying herself, while he was earthbound and moping about alone... :rotfl:

[Janie]

Eric (Keltoth) seems to (and he may correct this if I'm way off) clip them till they've learned manners, and then let them be flighted or only partially clipped until it seems like they need an "Attitude Adjustment" aka...Not coming when they should, or flying away when they need to go back in the cage etc etc. So I guess it just comes down to knowing your birds, and doing what will suit them and your situation best.

I agree with that 100%. It's only been in the last year that Oliver has proven to me he will still be a very good birdie, fully flighted. He was tame when I got him but too much flight just didn't work out until I'd had him for over two years. The other two? HA, they probably will always need at least a partial clip. Way too much attitude! :D

[graushill]

Yup, that's what I do. For my flock, nothing bridges the avain/human communication gap to say, "BIRDIE, YOU SCREWED UP!" quite like the dreaded scissors coming out and taking off a few primary flights.

I know I'm the minority here, but I must say that I'm a bit doubtful myself with this type of behaviour correcting measures. In the interest of full disclosure, I have to say I'm not in favour of clipping in general but when it's a form of punishment, I feel even more strongly against it. And I've seen birds crashing into windows and breaking their necks, so with my brain, I understand that sometimes clipping is what must be done for safety measures. But when it's because the birdie won't step up or I don't know, because it bites , I just don't know, I get a funny feeling in my stomach. *sigh*. I don't know, I guess part of my attitude has to do with the fact that I like to watch them more than I do need them to be with me or on me.

Anyway, this was just my :2cents:.

Gloria

[Keltoth]

But when it's because the birdie won't step up or I don't know, because it bites , I just don't know, I get a funny feeling in my stomach.

I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying; perhaps I was imprecise with my words. I don't clip wings if a bird bites; I have other procedures in place that specifically deal with discouraging biting - nor do I clip because a bird does not want to step up; not only would that not make any sense from a direct "cause-and-effect" correlation standpoint, but all of my birds would soon run out of flights because they all have their moments when they just do not care to step up at that particular moment in time. I DO, however, clip if the bird is clearly flighted to the point where they continually and consistently fly away from me, requiring me to to either chase and try to catch them in order to get them back in their cages, stay on my hand to work, etc, OR allow them to think that if they are persistent in evading me, that eventually they will get their way - a condition that is extremely counter-productive and devastating to training a bird to reliably interact with a human in a measured, predictable manner.

I do not use nets with my birds, but I do allow them large amounts of out-of cage flocktime. During these activities, chasing a bird (with all the connotations that the word conveys: trying to snatch the bird before it can escape, lunging to cut it off, etc) is just begging for an accident to happen through you falling over onto a bird from being unbalanced, hurting a wing or a leg while trying to quickly capture the bird ...or yes, the bird itself flying headlong into a window or mirror in an effort to evade you so that will not have to go back into the cage. With this understanding, a clip removes the bird's ability to create these dangerous situations - but there is no denying that the bird itself sees this action as a negative thing. It does not take the bird long to correlate having its wings clipped as an effect that results directly from them purposely evading me when I am instructing them to come to me, for a return to their cage, a training session, or whatever. As such, many of my birds have become conditioned to the mere mention of a wing clip as an indication that their present practice of evasion is about to have immediate and undesirable consequences for them, and so they immediately stop what they are doing and look to step up in order to stave off any wingclip possibilities.

In my mind, clipping is, and always has been, all about creating a condition of greater safety. Birds that have consistently shown that they do what they are asked, or if you are insistent, get to keep their flights, because there is no reason for me to clip them in the relative safety of the aviary room. Those that consistently show that they will attempt to fly away when it is not appropriate lose their flights so that they are not able to do so in the future. Those that fall somewhere in the middle have their wings clipped so that they can still fly about, but are not fully flighted so that they cannot evade me to the point where dangerous conditions arise when I am forced to impose my will on them and make them return to their cages or whatever.

Lovebirds do not respond to punishment for punishment's sake in a favorable or predictable manner. Lovebirds DO understand the direct correlation between the ability to evade and the loss of their flights when done in direct response to their practice of evasion. The notion of clipping wings to punish a bird because it will not step up is nothing short of absurd and ludicrous; the bird would not be able to associate the effect of clipping with the cause of them refusing to step up. It would be equally ludicrous to clip a bird's flights if it bit you, as again, the bird would not be able to comprehend the cause-and-effect aspect of the exercise; a lovebird with NO flights and no ability to fly would STILL be able to bite just as hard, for whatever impulse may happen to trigger the action at any given point in time.

You are not in the minority. I also prefer not to clip my birds, and in fact do not clip them if they show they do not need to be clipped. If they create an unsafe condition wherein they can come to harm due to their ability to evade, then that ability to evade is diminished - sometimes greatly diminished - by way of an appropriate clip.

- Eric

[Xanthus]

Ok, took the little boogers to the vet today. The vet said they were in excellent health, though probably closer to 3 months than 5 months. He also informed me that their first moult doesn't always happen at 6 months - sometimes they hold off and have one BIG moult at the end of their first year. I also got them vaccinated against polyoma (they're need a second booster in 2-4 weeks)

The vet also said that his patients have had a lot of issue with the results from Avian Biotech coming back incorrect. He said that the labs that use the $20 test or feather testing use a chromosone testing method, whereas the more expensive labs actually analyze the full DNA (costing $50-$70) and are FAR more accurate.

So, I may wait a couple weeks and use his lab, rather than using Avian Biotech.

He clipped 4 feathers off each and let me watch as a bit of a refresher - and showed me the proper length to clip to. He also answered a bunch of my innane questions without batting an eye - FABULOUS! :clap:

When I got home, I took the birds in a back room and spent some one on one time with them and finally got the wilder bird to step up! She (that's the one I think is female) is great! Very demure, doesn't bite AT ALL, loves to snuggle up. But she's still rather skittish and tends to run away a bit before actually stepping up, often trying to find somewhere to hide.

The one I think is male is still doing very well with stepping up, but he's still biting a lot and his behavior out of the cage is very belligerant. I think his issue is a dominance conflict - just as he has with the other bird. I've been watching him trying to assert dominance on the other bird - pushing it off perches, stealing sunflower seeds from it, nibbling on it's toes, etc. And it seems like that's what he's trying to get from out interaction, as well.

Overall, another great day! :D

[Keltoth]

The vet also said that his patients have had a lot of issue with the results from Avian Biotech coming back incorrect. He said that the labs that use the $20 test or feather testing use a chromosone testing method, whereas the more expensive labs actually analyze the full DNA (costing $50-$70) and are FAR more accurate.

Be HIGHLY skeptical of that claim; I have run 67 individual birds through Avian Biotech for DNA testing, with 22 of them still here at home, and they have yet to be wrong on a single sexing. Could they be at some point? Sure - but I sure would not bet against the odds that they have of being right.

- Eric

[Xanthus]

Well, he specifically said that he didn't know what their actually success rate (%) was, but that he had at least more than a handful of patients that've had incorrect results from them - though obviously you don't hear about the successes as a vet - only the failures. :P

I trust that he's not lying, my sister-in-law's worked for him for quite a while before she moved (due to Hurricane Katrina), so he's one step off from being a family friend. :P

He's also a fairly well know AAV vet, he speaks at events and has published material.

So, though, he admittedly doesn't know ABI's actual success rate - he HAS heard of failures, more than a few - and he HASN'T had any failures show up with the more expensive lab that he uses. In fact, he even gave me the info for his lab and said that if I'd rather do it myself to save the $10 or so that he charges for collection, that I could go to them directly.

But, the question is - what IS ABI's failure rate? If it's not THAT high, the saved money might still be worthwhile, but then again - do I want to save some money and end up with results that I don't feel 100% comfortable trusting?

[Keltoth]

Well, to be fair, *I* don't know what their success rate is either; I would imagine that would be a rather hard thing to quantify in a real-world sampling, so I don't know if THEY know themselves. All I know is that I CAN quantify how many tests I've paid for and gotten back, and I've not once had anyone come back and say that a bird they got from me was a female that tested out as a male, nor have any of my own birds been incorrectly identified.

What are you willing to pay for piece of mind? I guess if you are only paying to have one bird sexed, than 60 bucks versus 20 isn't so painful if you are willing to pay extra for peace of mind; The thrifty side of me, however, tells me that I can sex three birds for the price of one - and until they give me cause to doubt the quality of their service, I'd much rather keep getting correct results for 1/3 of the price you quoted.

Just my opinion; your mileage may vary.

- Eric

[Xanthus]

Looking through Zoogen's site (the lab reccomended by the vet), I'm wondering if I'm looking at the wrong thing?

He went on for a bit about how they use a different, more thourough method, etc etc.

And looking through it, they look nearly identical in process to the other labs:


DNA sexing uses the process PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) to visualize pieces of DNA from the sex chromosomes of each bird.


Feather sexing and blood sexing are in most ways identical. Both procedures
require small amounts of template DNA (DNA isolated from each sample). Both use an assay procedure known as PCR.


DDC’s highly developed testing methods using PCR and state-of-the-art genetic analyzers have become the industry’s standard for accurate, legally defensible human DNA testing.

All three are approximately $20. All three have a quick turnaround of 24-48 hours.

So - what's my vet doing that's supposed to be so more accurate, costs 3x as much and takes 2-4 weeks to process? I know he sends in vials, rather than blood cards or feathers - could this have something to do with the difference? :confused:

[mangotiki]

Is it possible that the errors your vet heard about were a result of contaminated samples and not the lab?

Traci

[Xanthus]

That still leaves the question of what service he's using that costs $50 or more?

[Xanthus]

Here's some complimentary "wet birdy" pictures. :)

http://www.birdloversonline.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4313.0;attach=7769 ;image

[Xanthus]

Just been enjoying watching my birds dive into their fruist and veggies that I give them, usually emerging with their entire HEAD plastered with bits of plant matter. So I snapped some photos. They didn't come out that great, as I snapped them from across the room so as to not disturb the "plastering" proccess. :clap:

http://www.birdloversonline.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4313.0;attach=7771 ;image
http://www.birdloversonline.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4313.0;attach=7773 ;image
http://www.birdloversonline.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4313.0;attach=7775 ;image
http://www.birdloversonline.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4313.0;attach=7779 ;image

[graushill]

Hi!

Ugh, I don't like hijacking threads, specially since what I have to say has no so much to do with Xanthus, so I'm sorry Xanthus >o . I do have to say I think you're doing a great job and I'm sure you'll be reaping the rewards of all the care and effort you've put into your lovies. Yesterday I actually fed my lovies a salad of broccoli, carrots, red pepper and apple on a towel during their out of cage time after being inspired by you and AlovebirdMom (Ellen) to try new things for my flock and they actually ate everything up very happily. So thanks to both you and Ellen!

But this message is meant mostly for Eric (Keltoth), so hi Eric! I did consider PMing you, but I felt since I had posted my original message publicly, then I might as well post this one as well. First of all, I'm sorry if my original message came out more critical than I had meant to. I've read your messages about your flock, and someone who can be so eloquent and passionate about his flock is obviously a great lovebird daddy. So I didn't mean to question your experience or your commitment to your flock, or imply you were being unduly strict with your birds. Besides, Janie agrees with you and that's pretty much as good as an endorsement as one can get, in my book :). I did read your posting in which you explained more about your reasoning, and while I appreciate what you're saying, I still believe my main objection to clipping as a behavioural correcting measure holds true. You see, I think that flying is not really a privilege that a bird should win or should prove worthy of. It's his/her God given right. I sometimes feel very conflicted because from a bird's perspective, whether the clipping is to keep them safe or to make them more dependent to their human caregivers, the effect is the same. I love my birds, but I keep them in a cage most of the day. I decide what they will eat, where they will eat it from, at what time they come out, at what time they go to bed. I even decide whether they will breed or not. I feel like I've taken already so much of their freedom away. So, I guess in a way, flying has become a symbolical way of respecting their free will. Maybe in the end it all comes down to a feeling that birds should not be pets, and yet I love having them with me.

Anyway, I'm sorry if what I wrote came out rude. I didn't mean for my posting to seem critical of you. I do think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

And Xanthus once again, great job and thanks for the pics!

Gloria

[Janie]

Gloria, YOU RUDE? I doubt if that's possible! Seriously! :) OK, I agree, flight is a very personal thing and has to be decided on by each of us individually. So much depends on the the bird and the circumstances in your home. If you got a house full of kids and a door or window can accidently get left opened, that ain't good. Fortunately, my kids are grown and scared to death of me when it comes to my birds (:D) but still, I remind them constantly to close the door, etc. Having them confined to one room for the most part also helps. I always know where they are when they're out of their cages. But I agree, flight is the greatest thing to see and I'm all for it if it's safe for my birds. Funny thing, when I took Oliver for his yearly exam his vet commented on how great it was to see him flying around the exam room. :D

After praising Oliver so highly, that little stinker got away from me today (inside the house I mean) and just as I'd get to him and tell him to step up, he'd take off again!!!! All three were taking a bath and while Shy and Big Boi can get completely wet, Oliver is still a little bowl bath shy so after watching him dunk that little head and try so hard to flap some water on the rest of his body I decided he needed a little sink bath so that he could have some itching relief. The second he saw the towel that I always use when I'm going to bathe him, he took off! :lol For 30 minutes he flew every single time I approached him. It's exactly what I deserved and I have to respect him for it. That boy let me know that he was wet enough to suit himself! :D Honestly, I liked seeing that he can have an attitude when he wants to, that is so rare with him. :)

[Keltoth]

You see, I think that flying is not really a privilege that a bird should win or should prove worthy of. It's his/her God given right. I sometimes feel very conflicted because from a bird's perspective, whether the clipping is to keep them safe or to make them more dependent to their human caregivers, the effect is the same.

I understand what you are saying, and if the lovebirds were living in a totally wild environment and coming and going and interacting with humans as they wish, I would absolutely agree. However, they are not; they are, for whatever reason, living in an human world, with humans. We are already insisting that they interact with us on our terms just by living in our homes. While the effect of clipping them may be the same as you outlined above, intent really does matter.

To put a slightly different spin on the sentiment that you invoked, let me voice this perspective: Whether you fail to clip a lovebird out of respect for it's God-given right to flight or you fail to clip it because you want to foster it's independent spirit and a sense of non-reliance on humans, if the lovebird flies headlong into a window and breaks it's neck, the effect is still the same - the bird is still just as dead. Not only is it just as dead, but it is dead because you DELIBERATELY failed to impose conditions on it while it lived in the human element, knowing full well the risks that the human element poses to lovebirds in their unclipped form.

You cannot equate wild conditions and freedoms to a captive bird; the two are totally opposing, conflicting realities. If you are going to own a captive lovebird, then you are directly responsible for the bird's safety. If the bird dies because you neglected to protect it out of a desire to preserve certain conditions that are non-applicable in a human environment, then you are deliberately choosing to place your bird in an unsafe environment. Your intent will not matter to the bird if it is dead, but it CAN matter to your bird if the bird is alive and well.

In any event, I do want you to know that I did not feel like you were rude or unjustly harsh. I did not take your posting as a personal attack, and I hope that you do not take mine as such. I well understand that people can have differing philosophies and viewpoints and express them without any intent of rudeness or maliciousness. I appreciate your apology, especially since no apology from you was owed or expected.

- Eric