Praise and Rewards

[Xanthus]

Ok, been taming/training my little ones now for 2 weeks. I'm making very good progress, but I'm wondering if my praise and rewards are 'good enough'?

So far I've been using verbal rewards, light petting and every so often a sprig of millet.

I was told not to rely too often on food rewards, otherwise they'll come to expect treats whenever they do anything. Is there anything else I should be doing to let them know they're being good?

They seem wary about the petting, one more than the other - should I drop that as a reward until they become more comfortable with it? :confused:

For negative reinforcement (like when they bite) I tell them "No." in a low voice, growl at them, hiss at them, pick them up and hold them (like you do when you're going to clip them, or do their nails or something - not like you do when you're trying to make them feel safe and loved), blow on them and make faces at them.

Just looking for some feedback anything more, less of different that I should be doing here? :confused:

[Xanthus]

Oops, forget - laddering, I've been laddering them when they bite as well, as they both have stepping up pretty much down. They don't always do it - but they know what it means. :lol

[Elle]

Praising and millet should be rewarding enough. If they are not comfortable being petted at this time, I would wait until they are comfortable. You have to remember that a reward is something that is supposed to be pleasant for them. Not you :) Millet is fine for now. At a later time you can reduce the millet and triple the praises :)

I would not hold my bird as if I were to clip them as a punishment. This can be frightening for them and as a result they can become more aggressive and attempt ( and most lilkely will) to run away from you.

When I want to discourage bad behavior, I use a sharp no. I use the tone of voice that will make a child stop in their track. I remove the bird from the situation. I keep an extra cage in a seperate room and will give time out only under extreme circomstance. But it works. A bird is a flock animal. Removing it from the flock means this is not tolerated in our flock. Again, this is under extreme situation.

I don't put myself or my birds in a situation where they would misbehave. I don't pet them if they don't want to be petted. I don't force my hands in the cage if they are tired, sleeping or nesty. If they are frighten, I don't impose myself.

If they don't feel like they want to socialise with me, I don't force them to be on me. I will interact with them in an enviroment where they are comfortable. For example, their play pen can be moved into another room, they can stand on it and we will interact that way. I will take out favorite toys, new toys and other things to get their interest. Once I have their interest, usually things goes pretty well from there.

I also respect the fact that lovebirds have short span of attention. Our sessions will not last anymore than 10 minutes. I make sure I end the session on a positive note so my birds want to participate in our next session. Ending a session negatively will most likely detter my birds from wanting to do this again.

Taming a bird means that you will prove to that bird that you are trustworthy. You can only impose what you want so much. You have to respect them and remember that they are highly intelligent little critters :)

[Janie]

Elle, :clap: :clap: :clap: and Amen!

[linda040899]

Very well said, Elle!
Birds are not domesticated like cats or dogs. They are simply wild animals that we have tamed. If they feel threatened or afraid, they will resort to instinct: escape from the threat or bite for protection.

Parrots do not understand the concept of punishment. Extended time outs in their cages is just a change of venue for them. Frighten them enough and they will retreat to the safety of their cages and will not want to come out. In order to have a truly "tame" (trusting) avian companion, they need to feel safe around you. Trust/feeling safe will not happen overnight and there are no shortcuts. Ginger, my CAG, has been a member of my flock since 1991. She loves to interact but does not want to have any physical contact with humans. All I can do is respect her wishes, as we are flock members rather than me being "alpha" bird.

[DebSpace]

I was told not to rely too often on food rewards, otherwise they'll come to expect treats whenever they do anything. Is there anything else I should be doing to let them know they're being good? They seem wary about the petting, one more than the other - should I drop that as a reward until they become more comfortable with it?

I have experienced great success using healthy treats as rewards without negatively affecting their appetite for daily nourishment. If they are warying of the petting I would say that is perfectly normal. Two weeks is not a very long time, so I think you might need to readjust your expectations and slow down a little.


For negative reinforcement (like when they bite) I tell them "No." in a low voice, growl at them, hiss at them, pick them up and hold them (like you do when you're going to clip them, or do their nails or something - not like you do when you're trying to make them feel safe and loved), blow on them and make faces at them. Just looking for some feedback anything more, less of different that I should be doing here?

I firmly tell my birds "no bite" and use the gentle beak hold as I do when I am training. Once they understand, I have rarely had occasion to do a beak hold again, and when I did it was because of their behavior with another bird, not with me. Things can come across harshly in words sometimes, so perhaps I am misinterpreting your approach. I feel obligated to tell you that positive reinforcement and patience/consistency will get you lots farther in developing an enjoyable relationship with your birds than hissing, growling blowing on them and restraining them.

If anything, to be bluntly honest, it sounds as though you are bullying them a bit. :confused: Sensitive, loving and caring bird owners quickly learn from their birds response how to determine when they are pushing a bird into a situation it is uncomfortable with. I encourage you to try to place yourself in their situation - what would your reactions be to someone you haven't known long trying to, say, train you on a new job and when you don't perform perfectly, they subsequently punish you for it?:(

[mangotiki]

If anything, to be bluntly honest, it sounds as though you are bullying them a bit.


Holding them as if you are going to clip them...sounds like a way to reinforce their fear, not gain their trust.

It took a year for one of my hens to trust me. This was entirely on her terms. She still didn't like hands but she did learn that I carried millet around...when ever she flew to me she got a treat.

Taming a bird means getting their trust; it does not mean scaring them. They are biting because they are scared or dislike what is happening. To then do something they dislike even more only reinforces that they should be trying to defend themselves!

Enjoy your birds for the birds they are. More will come in time. Rush things and none of you will be satisfied!

My :2cents:

Traci

[LauraO]

Am I the only one around here that rarely gives a rip if my lovies bite me, even if blood is drawn???????

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Janie]

Am I the only one around here that rarely gives a rip if my lovies bite me, even if blood is drawn???????

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Nope, I'm right there with you, Laura! I dreaded that first bite for so long but once I got it, heck, it was really no big deal. :whistle: My sweet little Big Boi is going to bite occasionally and that's just that. I wouldn't change anything about him although I'll admit that I wish he would not bite the scab that has finally formed from the last bite! :D Even His Royal Highness, Oliver, has bitten me when my son tried to remove him from under my hair....trying to bite him but got my neck instead. :rolleyes: I would never choose to be bitten but if it happens, it happens! ;)

[bellarains]

As it's all been said, I just want to agree that fear is not something you want to use to teach them not to bite. If anything, this will make them bite you more.

Biting is their defense, and if they fear you, they will bite you. Besides, this could cause some very negative psychological issues, bring on plucking, etc... That you definitely don't want to happen.

Nothing wrong with rewards for good behavior. No reward for bad behavior is the way I would go. They will catch on. Good behavior=reward. Bad behavior=no reward.

[Xanthus]

I agree with a few things said here, and you guy's are probably right, I probably am rushing things a bit.

But, that being said, I am VERY surprised how unconcerned some of you seem to be with biting. Every training material and taming guide I've read so far has been very throrough in explaining that you shouldn't tolerate biting under any circumstance.

I understand that lovies, and most animals for that matter, don't understand punishment and are usually just frightened by such things. So, perhaps I've taken that too far, and I appreciate you pointing that out.

But I also understand that parrot, like dogs have a sort of "pack alpha" mentality, and I'm not content with letting one of them have that position. I think for safe handling and easier care it's important (and I've been told that be every guide I've read so far) that they know I (or one of the other people in the house) is the 'alpha'.

So far it seems that the one I'm guessing to be the hen just bites every now and then either out of curiosity or fear (she's rather clumsy as they're still rather young and will bite if she thinks she's falling), so I'm not to hard on her, I just say "No" and make a face at her.

The male though...he's deliberate and mean about his bites. He's nearly completely tame already, he just seems to be biting to let me know that he can if he wants to.

I started off telling him no - then when that stopped working(2-3 days), moved to puffing air on him until that stopped (another 2-3 days). Then I tried the 'beak hold' method, but I don't think I did it right. He just seemed to think that I was trying to wrestle with him and got very angry and bit me a lot. Though, this might be as I was just trying to be very gentle with him, as I know how delicate birds are.

So, faced with a belligerant and willful animal that obviously understands the commands I give and doesn't seem to be biting out of fear or uncomfortability, I moved to thinking - well, what can I do to discourage this behavior?

Beak-only restraint has failed as it was ineffective in restraining him from biting me and only served to anger the animal. So, I used a more thorough method of restraint - holding him.

At first this worked well, he'd calm down after a moment or two, I'd release him back to my hand and ladder him a few times, then praise him for doing the commands well.

After about day though, he stopped calming down this way, he'd just fight and try to bite again. So while holding him, I'd tell him no and puff on him. This was about a day ago and is still working.

The thing is, I'm not ok with letting this bird believe he is my 'alpha', I'm not ok letting him bite simply because he thinks it's 'cool' or something.

I'm not just randomly restraining my birds, nor am I being careless or trying to hurt them. I'm just trying to quash agressive 'dominance-related' bahviors that they (only one of them, really) has been displaying towards me and my wife.

I'm working very hard to use praise 99% of the time and resort to other methods only when I feel it completely necessary. So far, this has been paying off very well, and much more quickly than I hah hoped. I went into this expecting 2 birds that would take MONTHS to tame or train - as this was what I'd been told.

Within a week both birds understood the step-up command and one was tame enough to do it without any significant coaxing. Within 2 weeks, they'll both do the command without coaxing - so long as they're not in their cage.

Perhaps I'm just getting carried away by what has been, so far, 2 uncharacteristically easy-to-train birds and taking for granted that they'll continue to learn so fast. Perhaps I should slow down and see what happens. But I really feel I've been gauging how fast I'm going so far by their reactions. If they look fearful or uncomfortable, I slow down or stop. If they look comfortable, curious or playful, I keep going. If they look angry, belligerant or seem to be trying to impress that they're "in-charge" - that's where I'm having problems. Distraction seems counter-intuitive, though I tried it anyway, and it didn't work. Putting them back in the cage or away from me is what they want still - so that won't work. Restraint they don't like and it does seem to be working.

I think even lovies will understand that if they bite, I will become unhappy and hold them so they cannot bite me. That seems to be reinforced by my reading, too.

With a more thorough breakdown of the situation, please, is there any other feedback you can provide? :(

[linda040899]

I've been living with birds all my life, but I've had more since 1991. One thing I've learned over the years is that if I get bitten, it's my fault. Birds will bite if they are afraid, just for the reaction thrill that they get as a result of a bite or because they are trying to warn you about something and they can't get your attention any other way. You can actually teach your bird to bite! (Bird bites hand so owner puts bird in cage. If that's where the bird wanted to go in the first place, guess what he's going to do the next time he wants to go back to his cage!)

With birds, there is no "alpha" position. They are not like cats or dogs. Just because I want to be social doesn't necessarily mean that my birds are ready to socialize. If they are tired, you may get nipped if you disturb them. If they are eating, they are not in control just because I let them finish before I bother them. With birds, the line from Karate Kid (original movie) applies best: "Best defense no be there!" If you don't want to get bitten, then avoid the situation that produces the bite.

You don't have to agree with us, but most of us here have found that this is what works best for us. Once your birds trust that you respect them and will not hurt them, the biting will become minimal.

[mangotiki]

Mango bites. Hard. But he is also very tame. We can clip wings, feed meds, hold him on his back and upside down and tickle his belly...Yes, I think he is spoiled...but we understand his personality and his body language and I never get bitten, because I respect him.

He is who he is.

Malibu used to run across the room to bite...but she began to trust us to the point where she would alight on our shoulder and let us pet her. But she never did like fingers. Then Angel, well, she is nesty right now but normally she is the sweetest little thing and never bites.

So I understand you not wanting your birds to bite, absolutely. I guess I was just concerned about the discipline you were using...It really does sound like you are making progress with the birds getting to know you, and I think that you do not need to worry so much about getting nipped, as long as you recognize and respect your bird's personal space. After all, you do not want to be forced to handle them when you are busy elsewhere; perhaps they do not want to be forced either.

Also, how old are the birds? If they are young, they often go through a nippy stage where they are just checking everything out...Oliver was the worst for that...it was not out of spite or anything. We just said no and offered her something else to nibble on. If she persisted, well, back to the cage she went. Also, this is how we got her on to pellets, cause we'd offer them when she was nibbly. The all grow out of it in my experience!!

Good luck with your birds,

Traci

[Xanthus]

I've been living with birds all my life, but I've had more since 1991. One thing I've learned over the years is that if I get bitten, it's my fault. Birds will bite if they are afraid, just for the reaction thrill that they get as a result of a bite or because they are trying to warn you about something and they can't get your attention any other way. You can actually teach your bird to bite! (Bird bites hand so owner puts bird in cage. If that's where the bird wanted to go in the first place, guess what he's going to do the next time he wants to go back to his cage!)
Yes, I've grown up with birds around me most of my life as well - just parakeets, not lovebirds. :D

Though, I kind of feel like the above is just sort of the "form" answer. Kind of a cut&pasted segment used in every thread like this.

Sorry if I'm off-base there.


With birds, there is no "alpha" position. They are not like cats or dogs. Just because I want to be social doesn't necessarily mean that my birds are ready to socialize. If they are tired, you may get nipped if you disturb them. If they are eating, they are not in control just because I let them finish before I bother them. With birds, the line from Karate Kid (original movie) applies best: "Best defense no be there!" If you don't want to get bitten, then avoid the situation that produces the bite.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Every lovebird or parrot book I've read so far and every website or forum I've been to so far says that parrots (including lovebirds) DO jockey for dominance. Not all reference an actual "alpha" bird. But all have said that parrots do have a concept of "dominance". Do you have any sources you can cite that would indicate otherwise?

And, though I'm a big fan of "Karate Kid", unfortunately, I am here. They are here. I'm likely to need access to their cage at times and I'd like to be able to interact with them on a basis that doesn't involve me getting bitten.

So far, the bird that has a biting issue the only situation I'm notice that create the bite is he just feels like it.

If he doesn't want to step up - bite
If he want back in the cage - bite
If he doesn't want to come out of the cage - bite
If he wants the thing I'm holding in my other hand - bite
If he's bored - bite
If he's overstimulated - bite

And other times, he cocks his head at me, chirps, I talk back, and he shuffles his feet a bit - and bites me!

He's just gotten it into his head that biting is an acceptable (and possibly fun) thing to do at just about any time. I don't know if he was accidentally trained this way by the breeder or the pet store staff - but I need to "untrain" this behavior.


You don't have to agree with us, but most of us here have found that this is what works best for us. Once your birds trust that you respect them and will not hurt them, the biting will become minimal.
This is true, but everything I've read so far states it sort of 2-fold. Once they trust you, they'll be nice and friendly and such - but you also should make sure you don't train them to bite, and if they already have that propensity, then you need to train them not to.

In any case - I don't want to come off like I'm just bully these poor birds, grabbing them, manhandling them, yelling at them and blowing on them constantly.

That is certainly not the case. That would be cruel and technically a violation of the law as animal cruelty where I live - and unconscionable in any case.

99% of the time I'm trying to keep them engaged with treats, showing them things around the house, talking to them, practicing stepping up on and off, praising them. I agree that this is the best way to train them.

But if and when they become beligerant and bitey, I do tell them "No". I make faces at them. I blow on them. And if necessary to ensure my blood remains inside my body - I restrain them.

Usually, this is followed by a bit of laddering, some more priase, and then returning them to their cage.

The goal is not to traumatize them. Just to let them know that biting is not acceptable, I enjoy when they're friendly and behave well and that good behavior will get them what they want quicker than bad behavior.

[Xanthus]

Also, how old are the birds? If they are young, they often go through a nippy stage where they are just checking everything out...Oliver was the worst for that...it was not out of spite or anything. We just said no and offered her something else to nibble on. If she persisted, well, back to the cage she went. Also, this is how we got her on to pellets, cause we'd offer them when she was nibbly. The all grow out of it in my experience!!

Good luck with your birds,

Traci

Yeah, that are going through that stage I think - the vet said (confirming what I thought) that they're probably between 3-5 months. I thought closer to 5, but he says probably closer to 3.

So, 'teething' may be an issue. Like I said before though, I'm not concerned with little nips, grabbing hold of my finger as a perch or things like that.

It's when they're just being belligerant and mean - that's my problem. And I suppose I should say 'them' as it's actually only one of the pair that's been a problem in that way so far.

Thank you for your feedback and well-wishes. May you also have luck with your own avian ventures. :D

[Keltoth]

But, that being said, I am VERY surprised how unconcerned some of you seem to be with biting. Every training material and taming guide I've read so far has been very throrough in explaining that you shouldn't tolerate biting under any circumstance.

I don't know that anyone here is unconcerned about biting, but there is a difference between consequences that discourage biting, and consequences that reinforce biting. The distinction can seem subtle to new owners, but it is very real. Consequences that are overly dramatic only embolden lovebirds to bite again, because it reinforces the notion that they can influence you when they so choose, simply through biting. Additionally, when you take a punishment approach to the biting issue, you run up against the escalation aspect, wherein your bird becomes desensitized to your harsh treatment while at the same time knowing that they can still influence your behavior by biting. Once they become desensitized to your punishment and begin biting without fear of consequence, you either have to escalate the harshness of your punishment, or accept that you now have a bird that is not only a biter, but a biter which you have actually reinforced to bite!

Consequence versus Punishment in regards to negative behavior can probably be best summed up thusly:

* "Consequence Training" is an approach in which you try to convince your bird that a specific behavior is something that it should not do, because the specific behavior damages the relationship between the bird and his human friend; i.e., a friendly relationship between two entities of roughly equal consideration.

* "Punishment Training" is an approach in which you attempt to force your bird to refrain from a specific action through sheer dominance, using techniques that totally ignores the fostering of a freind-to-friend relationship between avian and human; i.e., a hostile relationship between master and peon.

Consequence Training in no way means that the entire relationship should be one in which your bird has a truly equal standing with you, as that is just silly; there will be times when you, as the human, will need to impose your will on the bird for its own good and continued quality of life: taking it to the vet, putting it in the cage for the night, etc. It just means that when training your bird, it is critical that a condition of mutual trust is built between you and the bird, in order for it to be open to the notion that it WANTS to behave in a manner in which his/her human friend is pleased, so that the human friend will reciprocate with behavior that the bird finds enjoyable. The end result is a give-and-take interplay which empowers the bird by showing it that it can have a say in the way the relationship progresses. Punishment Training, however, actually works to DESTROY a loving relationship between the human and the bird, by showing the bird that the human has no consideration whatsoever of what the bird might want, by way of sheer dominance and force. This fosters an adversarial relationship between human and bird - one wherein the bird actual gains pleasure from defying the human who is attempting to impose it's will on the bird whenever the human feels the need to do so. In this manner, biting is actually reinforced, as it is the only empowerment the bird gains in the relationship; it is one of the ONLY ways that the bird can immediately and effectively influence the human. As such, the bird will bite, and each time the punishment is administered for the negative, biting behavior, the bird becomes more and more desensitized to the punishment - requiring the human to either concede defeat or increase the severity of the punishment.

Lovebirds are not domesticated animals like dogs. Dogs have lived and interacted with their human counterparts for thousands of years, and therefore they instinctively consider themselves an extension of the human family. Peachfaced Lovebirds at most have been raised in the company of humans for 150 years, with MANY lovebirds only being removed from the wilds of Africa within the last 80 years as their progenitors were shipped to different parts of the globe in the mid to late 20th century. As such, Lovebirds are not automatically compelled to accept a human/bird relationship; they have to be convinced to accept humans into their extended flock, because trying to force them to accept people has been shown again and again to have an extremely low success rate.


But I also understand that parrot, like dogs have a sort of "pack alpha" mentality, and I'm not content with letting one of them have that position. I think for safe handling and easier care it's important (and I've been told that be every guide I've read so far) that they know I (or one of the other people in the house) is the 'alpha'.

You are correct, in that you must establish yourself as the dominant partner in your relationship with your bird(s), because ultimately the bird is dependent on you for protection and sustenance. However, you do not have to assume an adversarial role in order to be regarded as the dominant participant in the flock. You can have a caring, give-and-take- relationship with your flock and STILL maintain the position of final authority - but you HAVE to be willing to empower your birds to be able to have a say in their own existence. There will be times when your birds will not want to come out of their cages. There will be times when your birds will not want to step up, and times when they will not want to go back INTO their cages. The trick is to build up a sort of a good-will slush-fund with your bird through allowing it a say in its day-to-day activities, so that when you are FORCED to impose your will on the bird (an emergency situation, or even simply when it is time for the bird to return to it's cage), the relationship with the bird is not damaged.

Your bird understands the dynamics of a caring, give-and-take relationship and having to give a little to get a little. Lovebirds rarely appreciate or respond favorably to a master/peon relationship in which they are forced to continually capitulate to the demands of the dominant human, and in such a relationship they are loathe to give up ANY behavior in which they are able to retaliate or strike back at their human tormentor, regardless of punishment. There might be short periods of compliance from the bird - until it becomes desensitized to the punishment, at which time the punishment must be increased in severity to maintain the desired behavior.


Beak-only restraint has failed as it was ineffective in restraining him from biting me and only served to anger the animal. So, I used a more thorough method of restraint - holding him.

At first this worked well, he'd calm down after a moment or two, I'd release him back to my hand and ladder him a few times, then praise him for doing the commands well.

After about day though, he stopped calming down this way, he'd just fight and try to bite again. So while holding him, I'd tell him no and puff on him. This was about a day ago and is still working.

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about when using a punishment approach versus a consequence approach; you had to escalate the punishment in order to get the desired results.

The purpose of holding their beak is NOT to punish, and if you want to succeed with your birds, you are going to have to totally re-evaluate your approach. The purpose of beaking the bird is to get it's undivided attention and to engage in an exact, measured and appropriate response every time the inappropriate behavior is exhibited. Consistency is the key; doing the exact same thing every time, without fail, over an extended period of time. Failure to be consistent in your approach will only teach your bird another negative trait - specifically, persistence. it will learn that if it does not get what it wants right away, all it has to do is persist in its actions, and eventually you will cave.

It is not a quick process - especially if the trust between yourself and your bird has already been damaged - and if you are expecting and demanding instant success with ANY approach you take with your bird, you will be sorely disappointed.

Your restraint approach is working now - but I will make a prediction. At some point, your bird is going to become desensitized to the approach that is currently working, and will begin to bite again. At that point, you are going to have to increase the severity of your punishment in order to get the results you now get, change your strategy in order to build trust between your bird so that you can convince it that biting you is not something that it wants to do - or you will have to concede defeat. If you wait until that point to change your strategy and start working on building trust, you are going to have ALOT more ground to make up in order to rectify (in the bird's mind) the unfair treatment you have subjected the bird to in the past. It takes a LONG time to rebuild trust with a bird that believes you have treated it harshly in the past, and every day that you engage in punishment techniques only serves to reinforce the notion from your bird's point of view that you have no consideration whatsoever for empowering your bird to engage in a trusting relationship with you.

In the end, you are going to decide how you are going to interact with your birds, regardless of what anyone else says. All I can tell you is that in my opinion, you are not giving yourself or your birds the tools that are necessary in order to establish a productive, functional and interactive relationship between you. I worry that if you stay on your current approach of punishment training, you will become just another owner who says that lovebirds are untrainable, in order to justify their birds becoming cagebound and left to their own devices in isolation. I know that sounds extremely judgmental, but it is what it is; I just cannot see you succeeding with your birds in the environment in which you are currently interacting with them.

I sincerely hope that I am absolutely mistaken, and I wish you well in whichever approach your choose to take with your birds.

- Eric

[Xanthus]

Thank you for your well worded and obviously well-thought out response. :)

I think you're probably correct in your assesment of my current methods.

Now goes the arduous process of training something even harder than an animal - me. :P

If my current methods are too far towards "punishment" rather than "discouragement" - how can I change this?

I keep seeing reference to "beaking" - how is this done? Like I said before, I tried this, and obviously screwed it up and ended up escalating the situation, with the bird wanting to fight me. :(

Also, are there any other methods I can use to discourage this behavior at present?

They're still not comfortable outside the cage 100%, so putting him back in the cage would be probably seen as a reward more than anything - thus reinforcing the behavior. Similarly with putting them down and walking away. They seem more interested in exploring my apartment than exploring me - so this would probably also be seen as a reward.

I was thinking of perhaps giving him time-outs in the small travel cage I got for vet visits - though I don't want them to see getting put in that cage as punishment, either. :confused:

Any thoughts? >o

[Bomom]

:2cents:

I was thinking of perhaps giving him time-outs in the small travel cage I got for vet visits - though I don't want them to see getting put in that cage as punishment, either.

My Bo was re-homed at about 6 mounths because she was a biter.. She was really mean ..drew blood and tears I might add .. I have a little towel that has a big orange monkey on it and she did not like this towel soooo I used it to put her into a time out cage, not her travel cage, a small round cage one perch no toys just food and water . I also would not give her eye contact for 5 to 10 min .. isolation from the flock is a very big deal to birds .. I only had to do this maybe 3 times and now she is very tame . she will not do anything unless she wants to but thats OK . She steps up.. kisses..comes to her name, most of the time:rolleyes: She's very smart .. Anyway the point is the big bad monkey towel was the enemy and not my hands

[Xanthus]

Ok - now all I need is a 3rd cage and an orange monkey?

lol, heh, seriously though - good points.

Though, I don't have the luxury of a 3rd cage at present - nor do I think my wife wouldn't consider the purchase "a waste".

[bellarains]

I think you have some good ideas in taming, meaning, teaching that biting is not acceptable, but I think your assessment of rushing things a little in correct. I think given the time, your little ones will come to trust you more, and the biting will lessen. I know it's hard to get through this part, but if you just continue to care for them, love them(even with the bites), and work with them on a daily basis, you will see results.

Oh, and sorry if I'm repeating something that's already been said, but working with each of them one-on-one will also help to form a bond with each of them as individuals, as well as working with them together. In fact, if one bonds with you quicker than the other, then this one will show the other that you are not so bad;)

We've had people who have worked with their birds for months, and finally, they earned trust. We've also had people whose birds learned to trust them in days, or a few short weeks. Allot depends on the bird itself, the breeder is a huge part of it, and allot depends on us.

I know you've gotten tons of response, and the one thing I want you to know is, it will happen. Have faith in the process, give them time to trust you mean them no harm, only want to love them,and care for them, they will come around:) I'm not saying you won't get the occasional bite or nip, but you will see a significant difference.

[patti2297]

I have been working with Charlie about 3 weeks now and I have not been bit once, but I am moving very slowly and if he retreats then I don't force the issue. I am using millet and he will come to my hand to eat it. I have petted him using the millet and the one time I used my finger it sort of freaked him out so I don't think he was quite ready for it.

Today, he acted like he wanted out of the cage and so I opened his door and paid absolutely no attention to him, and on his own he came out. He is still very very wary of me and by no means trusts me yet and I am 100% convinced if I move too fast he would indeed bite me. In his exploring of me (don't know how else to explain it) he has gently mouthed my finger as if to taste, but by no means bite.

He is very much scared of hands and at the pet store the way they retrieved him for us is this huge hand came in and grabbed him after chasing him around the cage. Heck, that would scare me. I am trying to teach him not to fear my hand and am convinced I will be successful if I go slow.

When I first got him he was deathly afraid of my hands. Now, I can open his cage, remove & replace food dishes and though he will retreat to the opposite side he is not nearly as scared as he once was. I can clean the bottom of his cage and he will watch me with great interest. My gut tells me he is close to stepping up on my hand, on his own, but only time will tell.

Good luck with your training. I think it is probably 10 times harder having two versus my only having one.

Patti

[linda040899]

Yes, I've grown up with birds around me most of my life as well - just parakeets, not lovebirds. :D

Though, I kind of feel like the above is just sort of the "form" answer. Kind of a cut&pasted segment used in every thread like this.

Sorry if I'm off-base there.
I've worked with everything from finches to macaws. The information I offer is from my own personal experience, not something that I've read in a book or somewhere on the Internet. If you choose to reduce my comments to the level of a cut/paste form answer, you are entitled to your opinion.

If you think lovebirds bite hard, I'll lend you my female macaw (she's biter) for a week! The bite of a lovebird will feel like a pinch once Georgia bites you! And, no, I don't flinch when bitten by a lovie.

[Xanthus]

I've worked with everything from finches to macaws. The information I offer is from my own personal experience, not something that I've read in a book or somewhere on the Internet. If you choose to reduce my comments to the level of a cut/paste form answer, you are entitled to your opinion.

If you think lovebirds bite hard, I'll lend you my female macaw (she's biter) for a week! The bite of a lovebird will feel like a pinch once Georgia bites you! And, no, I don't flinch when bitten by a lovie.


Whoa whoa whoa. I'm not trying to get into any kind of arguement over what anyone's level of knowledge, or even pain tolerance is here.

I didn't say your answer wasn't correct. I didn't say you got it out of a book. I said I've seen you post VERY similar answers in other threads at least a few times.

I'm saying I felt like you didn't really read and respond to my issues with that part of your post - you just read "biting lovebirds" and type up your normal answer.

If I was off base with that assesment, I AGAIN apologize.

I'm not here to insult or argue with anyone. If I thought I had the market cornered on Lovebird information - I'd write a book and make some money - not post questions to you guys here.

Further - I didn't mention anywhere that Lovebirds are hard or dangerous biters - honestly, the parakeets I used to help raise bit many times harder and drew blood more often. I'm not sure if that's due to the individual birds in question - or the species involved. You'd probably know better than me.

I'm also well aware that there's many other animals with dangerous or more painful bites than Lovebirds.

I also don't remember asking about anyone's individual pain tolerance, or if they flinch when bitten by their birds. If you'd like to compare individual pain tolerances and "fear factors" - I'd reccomend starting a thread on the subject.

Please - don't turn this thread into a flame war.

[mangotiki]

I said I've seen you post VERY similar answers in other threads at least a few times.

I'm saying I felt like you didn't really read and respond to my issues with that part of your post - you just read "biting lovebirds" and type up your normal answer.




Perhaps Linda's response is similar in other cases because she has experience and knows what works? I don't think your situation is so very different from what many of us experience.

Anyways, if you don't like the advice you are getting, I guess you could stop asking. None of us are likely to change our minds.

No flaming intended by the way.

Traci

[Janie]

I agree, Traci. I think this experience is about as typical as can be and the advice given by Linda and others has worked over and over again. It won't work if it's ignored. So, Xanthus, take it or leave it but it does come from years of experience.

[Robin VZ]

I just wanted to make a few general comments. Maybe not as specific as what you'd like but more of an overview.
Lovebirds (and other pet birds) cannot be dominated like cats and dogs. Reinforce what you like and ignore what you don't. Trust is the MOST important issue and you want all your interactions to be positive in nature. Behaviors on the humans part that are meant to intimidate the bird may be looked at as a drama reward rather than correction or be just way too frightening. You may be able to distract them with laddering exercises but having a treat or toy handy might work better. Lovebirds have strong territorial instincts as well and may be very territorial about their cage space. This is normal behavior and chances are, you won't be changing it.
Working out of sight of the cage is usually best.
It is in your favor that the birds are very young. A lot depends too on how they were handled as babies. Were they aviary bred? Handled as babies? or simply sold to the pet store as young birds? If they'd been handled and learned trust of humans from before fledging age, it makes a huge difference when it comes to settling into a new home. Take things very slowly and move at the rate they're comfortable with. Babies don't necessarily have to be hand fed to be tame but they should have been handled as babies.
I've never known a lovebird to skip it's first moult. I'd be interested to hear if anyone here has had a bird that didn't get it's adult feathers until being one year of age? (I believe this was mentioned in another of your posts) Did your vet say how he'd judged the ages of your birds?
Two hens in a cage can lead to aggressive behavior, so it's a good thing you're planning on having them sexed. Young birds may be ok for awhile and have greater difficulty once they mature. I have previously sent blood samples for DNA with mail in service and never had an incorrect result. Having two hens isn't an automatic problem though, some can get along well. They're all individuals. Just something to be aware of.

[Xanthus]

Perhaps Linda's response is similar in other cases because she has experience and knows what works? I don't think your situation is so very different from what many of us experience.

I agree, Traci. I think this experience is about as typical as can be and the advice given by Linda and others has worked over and over again. It won't work if it's ignored. So, Xanthus, take it or leave it but it does come from years of experience.

Ok, I'm trying very hard to not feel "ganged up on" or "defensive" at this point, but well - frankly, I do.

I never said I disagreed with the information presented - in fact, I said the opposite at least twice.

I never said I had more experience than those presenting information - in fact, I said the opposite at least twice.

My only issue is that I felt like my post wasn't read by one responder. That I asked what I thought were some pretty direct questions and instead got a formulaic dissertation.

I thought that her post for at least the first half of it was addressing issues that I already said I understood and that other posters in this thread had already brought up and that I'd already responded to.

In short - I felt like she was either being dismissive or browbeating me.

Neither is very friendly.

Nor is ganging up on me when I try to 'politely' bring that opinion to light.

And I feel very agressed towards by the responses.

Between Linda's shameless posturing about how she's more manly than me because she gets bit by macaws without flinching or other's replies of "take it or leave it!", "accept what we say or stop asking!" I'm wondering if I should turn my browser to a forum with less hostile natives.

I'd write more - but I think anything further is just hostile flamebait, as I feel very slightled by the attitudes presented.