Do I want this pair of lovebirds?

[Susan27]

A woman I know is looking to downsize her number of birds for breeding (she wants larger birds, not lovebirds anymore). As this seems to be a direction I would like to take, hobby breeding, very small it will be and stay, I was thinking of taking a pair off her hands.

There are some possible problems.

Since one REALLY looks like a Peachface/Fischer combo, the other appears to be a blue series. I have seen them in person. She has said that they have produced before, but I am not sure if this would even be possible (these were her elderly mother's I believe). From what I have read here, mix species are infertile? Would I want to breed mixes which would end up producing 3/4 Peach 1/3 Fischer? I am thinking this is a bad practice, or are these amounts of mixes ok?

Here is a picture, I am thinking I am correct that one is a mix:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2088986574
This is a pretty bird, but messing up the gene pool isn't my intention.

Should I just take them, and boil all eggs, just to prevent someone else from breeding them. I am not sure I want another non-producing pair.

My other thought for my flock was, I could DNA sex Chubby and Checker's babies, keep the males, hoping Chicken or Peepers would bond......Also, I just would like Chicken and Peepers to have a mate....

[linda040899]

Susan,
Yes, the pretty bird is a Peachie/Eye-ring species hybrid. The pair could not have produced babies in the past, as this bird is infertile. If you want to use them for breeding, you will have to split them and give the Peachie a Peachie mate. The breeder is lying and is looking to make up monetarily for a pairing mistake.

[Susan27]

Thanks Linda. I actually feel better knowing that they can't reproduce. I don't feel obligated to take them so they WON'T have babies. Not that I can solve all problems, but one's I know about I feel I should.

I will email her and tell her I am not interested at this time.

[Susan27]

Well, I emailed the woman back to get some more information on this pair. The mixed lovebird is the male. Apparently she actually witnessed a baby produced, which died during their move to their new home.

I won't be coming right out and telling her she is lying, she really didn't seem the type. Then again, I am notorious for falling for BS.

Is there ANY possibility that this male bird isn't infertile? Has there ever been a case where this rule doesn't apply?

I haven't told her that from my knowledge, mixing species of lovebirds produces infertility and there is no way they have produced even one baby. I would like to see her response if I did, but I don't want to sound confrontational.

Also, it am a bit more curious to see what would happen with these 2. Also, they are very pretty and the price is more than decent, even for non-breeding birds.

humm....do I really want another pair...well of course I do...do I have the room and time...yep....money....yep.....hummmm......

If she is knowingly lying about this, what else could she be lying about.....all these questions.....

[linda040899]

Susan,
To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a Peachie x Eye-ring cross lovebird that has been fertile. I've been in breeding circles for many yrs and I've seen/heard some strange things, but this is not one of them.

However, there's one possibility that I know to be true, as I've actually met a bird owner who had this happen. I'm aware of a previous case where a single lovebird hen hatched a chick and she was the only bird living in the household. This was back in late 1999. Parthenogenesis was how it happened and this could be the case with the supposed chick that hatched but died. The hen could have laid an egg that developed even though it was not fertilized, thus producing a chick. Could it happen again? Oh yes! Did it happen again with the single lovie hen that hatched the baby in 1999? No, not that I've been told about and I spent quite a bit of time helping the owner of that hen so we got to know each other pretty well.

[Estee]

Wow, this isn't my area at all but I just have to say that this is really interesting.

And I'll let this post stand for all the other, innumerable times that I've read things on this forum and thought, "wow, that's really interesting" but had no specific reason to post.

:)

[michael]

Its kinda odd sounding. Personally I would be very attached to a pair of lovebirds that produced many babies for my beneifit whether I sold them or not. I would not have cared for them a whole lot if after breeding them I felt afterwards it was necessary to find them a new home. Maybe its just me. If I had to fabricate a story in order to find a home for them, then my sole purpose for them was financial gain. Maybe she takes good care of them. Maybe she doesn't. If you Susan, take them in, they'll no doubt have a good home. Otherwise, hopefully she finds a decent home for them. Sorry to say, I'm kinda hoping her prospects for "larger birds" falls somewhat short of her expectations. Good luck with your decision as they are both very pretty.......Take care ........Michael and Goofy

[Susan27]

Odd sounding is definitely my thoughts. She is actually the person I bought my pair of parrotlets from. I have seen her bird set up, it's okay, my roommate did see toys in the cages (I was too busy looking at the birds), but nothing compared to what my birds have. It was clean, all the birds looked healthy (looks don't tell the whole story sometimes), cages were good sized, but her main purpose was breeding, only the quaker seemed pet like.

I want to give her the benefit of the doubt (thus all my questions etc.) because she is a nice woman. She really could charge much more, as I have seen breeding pairs going for almost 3x as much. In fact, one parrotlet around here costs twice as much as what I paid for the two. She has kids, quite a few big birds, just moved, the smaller birds are actually her mother's. I would really think lying to me would be useless...but I am really leaning towards the fact that that is what it is. I really try to look for the best in people....sometimes (this time) probably too hard.

I believe everything Linda has said, no doubts, it's what I have read here before...I just wanted to find that loop-hole....immaculate conception seems to be that loop-hole (ok, not quite that, more like evolution).

I am still debating on my decision....they would have a better home here, but that could be true for another person, if they know that breeding is not going to be involved with this pair. My brain is set on :confused: right now.....

Thanks for all the comments....at least I know pretty much what I may or may not get myself into.

[linda040899]

immaculate conception seems to be that loop-hole (ok, not quite that, more like evolution).
Parthenogenesis occurs in poultry but this was the first case that my avian vet had ever seen in exotics. The baby that hatched survived for a yr and a half, only to be killed by the owner's daughter's 13 yr old Rottweiler in a totally freak accident. My avian vet did the necropsy.......

Since I know of at least one "for sure" incident, I've questioned how many other times this could have happened, where parthengenesis is responsible for the baby's existence rather than the male bird that happens to be half of a breeding pair. The "male" half of the pair in question is infertile by breeding genetics so there's no other explanation for the baby that hatched if the breeder is telling you the absolute truth. The male would look different if he were the offspring of a Fischer's x Masked hybridization. The orange colored beak is the giveaway.

[shylevon]

If the birdies need a good home, why would you chose not to give them one just because they cannot reproduce? I am just wondering, as birds all make lovely companions, and it is not his fault that he was hatched as a hybrid and is infertile.

It seems that if you have love in your heart, he is as good a birdie as any other.

[Kirby]

One thing you could do.. is if it is possible to get a bird tested for infertility.. .maybe have that done first?

Or if you are just thinking ahead with breeding, like: "Maybe down the road I can use these two as breeding" why not get the little guy anyways? you might have a match for the other one later?

I'm not into breeding.. and doubt I'll ever be as I don't have the time.. so I'm content with my elder Lovie and crum bum Kirby


I'd say you give them both a home fertile or not :)

[graushill]

I think hybrids are sooo pretty and that cutie pie in the picture is no exception. I would love it if I could find one that needed a good home :) .

If I understood correctly, you were thinking about taking them only if they were fertile but planning to boil any eggs produced. Now that I read what I wrote, I'm sure I must've misunderstood you 'cause that doesn't make much sense, but I was thinking you could still boil the eggies, even if they're not fertile, if that's what you would in any case do. I'm hopelessly muddled now so I think I'll stop typing and just say:

Good luck whatever you decide (and if you decide on keeping them, please take more pics!).

Gloria

[michael]

Possibly, this breeder is confused. At least you have some facts to go on about their reproductive status among other things. Should you decide to give them a home I would certainly use your knowledge without confrontation to get a better price. Hmmm, I wonder if there will be problems with infertility, or what if? Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. A better price yet, and a good home to go along with it! Decisions, decisions....:D .....Michael and Goofy

[Susan27]

If the birdies need a good home, why would you chose not to give them one just because they cannot reproduce? I am just wondering, as birds all make lovely companions, and it is not his fault that he was hatched as a hybrid and is infertile.

It seems that if you have love in your heart, he is as good a birdie as any other.

I put out an ad for male lovebirds and that I would possibly be interested in proven pairs. The only reason I am leary about this pair is my doubts that they produced babies. Not because they can or cannot, but the seller telling me that they have, and the slim possibility that they actually did. If she isn't telling the truth, what else is she not telling the truth about was my only concern.

My whole reason for looking for males or proven pairs was that I wanted
1. mates for my two single females and 2. a breeding pair, which could be made by a male for one of my singles.

I could take this pair (not made up my mind yet), but if every lovebird that is introduced to me I took, just to give them a good home, I would be have more birds than I can handle.


I think hybrids are sooo pretty and that cutie pie in the picture is no exception. I would love it if I could find one that needed a good home :) .

If I understood correctly, you were thinking about taking them only if they were fertile but planning to boil any eggs produced. Now that I read what I wrote, I'm sure I must've misunderstood you 'cause that doesn't make much sense, but I was thinking you could still boil the eggies, even if they're not fertile, if that's what you would in any case do. I'm hopelessly muddled now so I think I'll stop typing and just say:

Good luck whatever you decide (and if you decide on keeping them, please take more pics!).

Gloria

Much of what I wrote probably didn't make too much sense. I was typing my thoughts and what I would do in situations. I was told by the seller that this pair had bred. I was looking for a breeding pair. I was weighing my options as to what to do if they actually did breed. Did I want to breed hybrids? Apparently they cannot breed. Hybrids are viewed by many in the bird world as a big no-no. Before I confirmed (by Linda) that infertility of hybrids is a definite, I was debating (with myself mostly) if it would be irresponsible to produce hyrbid babies.

I treat all my birds as pets, if they breed or not, but in this case I was specifically looking for a breeding pair.

I still haven't made up my mind about this pair I am interested to see what will happen (reproducing wise), and they are of course beautiful, so the breeding part is a small part of the decision. If I do take them, the only other lovebirds I am allowed to get are males, even if a breeding pair comes my way. Also, I plan to DNA sex at least one of my babies in hopes of finding a boy. But of course, I will find males and Chicken and Peepers won't like them...lol....so I will end up with more single birds....I will have to start a lovie dating service soon.

[Susan27]

Possibly, this breeder is confused.

That was another one of my thoughts, it is so much easier to take than flat out lying.

Using my knowledge to get a better price....:rofl: That's a good one...and a good idea.

[michael]

Hopefully I didn't add to your dilemma. Susan...A birdie dating service? Now that could be a better idea!:) .......Michael and Goofy

[graushill]

It's not your fault I got confused. I read very fast (an occupational hazard) and I get confused more often than I would like to admit >o.

Anyway, I see now you had said that you wanted to take them only if they were indeed able to reproduce to prevent someone else to continue breeding hybrids. Although, technically would the offspring of a PF-fischer hybrid and a PF still be hybrid? Wouldn't they be almost peachies then? Genetics boggles my mind but I digress ;) .

I have always understood that PF-fischer hybrids are not fertile so besides parthogenesis, which would be an admittedly cool explanation 8), another alternative is that the hen mated with another lovie, if she has others around. I think I read somewhere that lovies are not exclusively monogamous, and sometimes can "cheat" on their partners. The breeder does sound like a nice lady, so I wouldn't think she's lying.

Unlike Michael, I can understand someone wanting to focus on larger parrots. Much as I love my lovies, sometimes I miss my family's 'zon, Nicky. I hope that doesn't sound so blasphemous at our board.

I do agree with Michael in that a birdie dating service sounds like a great idea. I know I would sign both Bubblan and Elmo up :).

Gloria

[Ilovelovies]

I do agree with Michael in that a birdie dating service sounds like a great idea. I know I would sign both Bubblan and Elmo up :).

Gloria

Mine will just have to wait a few more years, they are not allowed to date until they are at least 5 years old :lol .

~Sharon

[michael]

Being predisposed to so many individuals only interested in the financial aspect of breeding, I sometimes don't leave much room for "benefit of the doubt". I really shouldn't hope for any short comings on one person, based on the actions of others. Hopefully her prospects for larger birds doesn't create a less than desirable outcome resulting in unwanted breeding stock. Which in a way I felt happened to the lovebirds. The point Gloria made about lovebirds not always being monogamous may in fact could have contributed to this woman believing this particular pair of lovebirds are capable of breeding. More of a simple mistake than confusion. And therefore, not a lie. That simple suggestion Gloria, made a world of difference..........Michael and Goofy

[Susan27]

She does have a bonded, unproven pair. I was going to suggest to her that maybe there was a little fling going on. I think I am just going to leave it be, take her story at face value, not imply other possibilities. Also, I doubt that her birds get out of cage time....but who knows.

I think she was forced into the 'smaller' birds when her mother decided to breed only finches. She had imported at least one larger parrot from outside the country...what kind and what species, I don't remember.

I have actually found many people who started out with smaller parrots and have 'moved' on to larger parrots. I understand that action based on money, but it was already asked/pointed out 'how can you not become attached to birds that have lived with you and produced babies literally for you, and then sell them off?' (I am paraphrasing here).

It has been said here many times, if you plan on breeding lovebirds, don't expect to make money doing it. Currently, the store I will be selling my babies to, have a very limited number of lovebirds available to them. They loved the first 2 babies I sold to them (an employee actually bought one and she made sure the other baby went to a good owner), and I plan on selling to them again...I am not making any money, if anything, it will be put away for vet visits. If a time comes that the lovie poplulation increases and they don't need any more, I won't breed anymore...that is to say, I will be boiling eggies.

Oh, and also, my last baby from Chubby and Checkers first clutch went to his/her new owners tonight. A wonderful man who is a big time bird lover! He had so many bird statues, pictures...I was very happy to give him a baby. Even a nice enclosed patio! I felt very happy when I left his home.

[michael]

Susan. You've expressed extreme responsibilty towards your interest in breeding. Knowing how challenging it is to always find good loving homes for any animals, especially birds, and knowing how much more care they need, certainly adds a bit of restraint regarding limitations, both financially and in the event not enough homes are available leaving them ultimately in your care. I really appreciate what you've shared here. Best wishes and keep us posted ;) ............Michael and Goofy

[Susan27]

After much himming and hawing I emailed the woman back and told her I am interested in adding these lovely lovies to my flock.

I will hopefully be picking them up within the next week or so (she is out of town). And you all know there WILL BE PICTURES!!

[Susan27]

I picked the pair up yesterday! They had one eggie and the hen is egg bum right now.

I tried to take some pictures, but the cage bars make it difficult! Guess we will see if any babies develop;) .

[carrier]

Congrats on the new pair! Have they been named yet? And the eggies! Let's hope that these babies are healthy, and please post some pics as soon as you can! :D

[Susan27]

Ok, I fooled around with the digital camera. Here are a picture of each of the new lovies. Bitsy and Charlie. They are very bonded, very vocal and aren't too shy.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2088986574

They now have many perches, toys, a nice swing, and a nesting box. Not that I expect anything from them, they came with an eggie and she is torpedo bum right now. She seems content to shred paper and bury her egg (first time for that for me)....I hope they enjoy their new home.

[ittyandrita]

awww, they are cute!
It is always great to see bird rescued from a toyless existence! I'm glad you decided to get them :)

[Kirby]

YAYYYYY!!!!

Hopefully you'll love em all the same even if there aren't any wittle babies

[carrier]

Very Cute! :)

You are going to make them very happy birdies, I'm sure! What color is Bitsy considered? Dutch Blue? She is very similar to Fenway.